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This is the problem replying to people who make strawman arguments. Also, dissent is being amplified with software, which itself is not conscious. Being more c

This is the problem replying to people who make strawman arguments. Also, dissent is being amplified with software, which itself is not conscious. Being more conscious of your points will help matters. Not being more conscious of your points will help accelerate the madness. You've failed to acknowledge anyone's argument here, which is really the hard part to learn.

asabjorn 5y ago
My point was exactly relevant because it sought to contextualize your claim specifically to the argument I made that you claimed to explain. If your points explanatory power is too poor to contextualize to what it criticize its honestly just a smear. You are to my estimation going into ad hominem in lieu of a good argument in both your replies. Whom do you think you can convince that I am wrong without contextualizing your claim?
asabjorn 5y ago
> Also, dissent is being amplified with software, which itself is not conscious. I find it hilarious that you accuse me of using a strawman by arguing that because I don't have a critical consciousness [1] I am not conscious of what I think and how it relates to the reality we live in. You are literally arguing that because I don't agree with (in your term "have") the gnostic knowledge of critical social justice activists I am essentially an unthinking program. I am sorry to break your bubble, but you can both be thinking and principally disagree with critical social justice (CSJ). Arguably the inherently group-based CSJ doctrine suppress individual thought in favor of group based identity. [1] https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-critical-consciousness/ https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-critical-consciousness/
- chalst 5y ago
  Your insertion of the word "critical" is making a strawman out of the assertion you replied to.
  - asabjorn 5y ago
    Full quote: > Also, dissent is being amplified with software, which itself is not conscious. Being more conscious of your points will help matters. Not being more conscious of your points will help accelerate the madness. The parent is clearly accusing me of not being conscious of my opinions, and this person doesn't know me so this is an assertion (s)he can not principally make. So how do you interpret what he/she refers to with conscious if it is not ideologically driven by critical social justice (CSJ)? My impression is that this person is an adherent of CSJ. In general adherents to CSJ tend to drop essential qualifiers, so that they can use the Motte-and-Bailey [1] rhetorical trick of arguing a more radical position (Bailey) and then when challenged defend a more moderate position(Motte). The CSJ adherents liberal individual Motte is not compatible with their group-based Bailey, it is purely a lie to provide cover until resistance has abated, and in general accusing someone of not being conscious simply because they agree with you is completely 100% unacceptable behavior. Especially if your viewpoints could have been spewed by a bot programmed to believe in CSJ. ;) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy#:~:text=The%20motte%2Dand%2Dbailey%20fallacy,(the%20%22bailey%22) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy#:~:te...
    - chalst 5y ago
      I am not going to explain your error to you if you have a track record of not admitting problems in your argumentation when they are pointed out to you. Seriously, you wrote the above just after I wrote the following: > To be clear, the problem kordlessagain is referring to is that if you make the effort to make explicit what the X and Y are, the response will rarely include the slightest explicit acknowledgement of any incoherence. > Generally, if a fallacy is found in one's arguments and one values intellectual honesty, the best response is to apologise for the error first and only then attempt to restart the argument. If you don't do this, but try to act as if there was no error, you do avoid loss of face in the eyes of the unthinking that comes from admitting error, but you lose the respect of readers who understood the error and saw the evasion. > It is a sad fact that today most people have little awareness of this risk of losing respect in heated arguments, let alone place high importance to it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28785685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28785685
chalst 5y ago
To be clear, the problem kordlessagain is referring to is that if you make the effort to make explicit what the X and Y are, the response will rarely include the slightest explicit acknowledgement of any incoherence. Generally, if a fallacy is found in one's arguments and one values intellectual honesty, the best response is to apologise for the error first and only then attempt to restart the argument. If you don't do this, but try to act as if there was no error, you do avoid loss of face in the eyes of the unthinking that comes from admitting error, but you lose the respect of readers who understood the error and saw the evasion. It is a sad fact that today most people have little awareness of this risk of losing respect in heated arguments, let alone place high importance to it.

asabjorn 5y ago

My point was exactly relevant because it sought to contextualize your claim specifically to the argument I made that you claimed to explain. If your points explanatory power is too poor to contextualize to what it criticize its honestly just a smear. You are to my estimation going into ad hominem in lieu of a good argument in both your replies. Whom do you think you can convince that I am wrong without contextualizing your claim?

asabjorn 5y ago

> Also, dissent is being amplified with software, which itself is not conscious. I find it hilarious that you accuse me of using a strawman by arguing that because I don't have a critical consciousness [1] I am not conscious of what I think and how it relates to the reality we live in. You are literally arguing that because I don't agree with (in your term "have") the gnostic knowledge of critical social justice activists I am essentially an unthinking program. I am sorry to break your bubble, but you can both be thinking and principally disagree with critical social justice (CSJ). Arguably the inherently group-based CSJ doctrine suppress individual thought in favor of group based identity. [1] https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-critical-consciousness/ https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-critical-consciousness/

chalst 5y ago
Your insertion of the word "critical" is making a strawman out of the assertion you replied to.
- asabjorn 5y ago
  Full quote: > Also, dissent is being amplified with software, which itself is not conscious. Being more conscious of your points will help matters. Not being more conscious of your points will help accelerate the madness. The parent is clearly accusing me of not being conscious of my opinions, and this person doesn't know me so this is an assertion (s)he can not principally make. So how do you interpret what he/she refers to with conscious if it is not ideologically driven by critical social justice (CSJ)? My impression is that this person is an adherent of CSJ. In general adherents to CSJ tend to drop essential qualifiers, so that they can use the Motte-and-Bailey [1] rhetorical trick of arguing a more radical position (Bailey) and then when challenged defend a more moderate position(Motte). The CSJ adherents liberal individual Motte is not compatible with their group-based Bailey, it is purely a lie to provide cover until resistance has abated, and in general accusing someone of not being conscious simply because they agree with you is completely 100% unacceptable behavior. Especially if your viewpoints could have been spewed by a bot programmed to believe in CSJ. ;) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy#:~:text=The%20motte%2Dand%2Dbailey%20fallacy,(the%20%22bailey%22) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy#:~:te...
  - chalst 5y ago
    I am not going to explain your error to you if you have a track record of not admitting problems in your argumentation when they are pointed out to you. Seriously, you wrote the above just after I wrote the following: > To be clear, the problem kordlessagain is referring to is that if you make the effort to make explicit what the X and Y are, the response will rarely include the slightest explicit acknowledgement of any incoherence. > Generally, if a fallacy is found in one's arguments and one values intellectual honesty, the best response is to apologise for the error first and only then attempt to restart the argument. If you don't do this, but try to act as if there was no error, you do avoid loss of face in the eyes of the unthinking that comes from admitting error, but you lose the respect of readers who understood the error and saw the evasion. > It is a sad fact that today most people have little awareness of this risk of losing respect in heated arguments, let alone place high importance to it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28785685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28785685

chalst 5y ago

To be clear, the problem kordlessagain is referring to is that if you make the effort to make explicit what the X and Y are, the response will rarely include the slightest explicit acknowledgement of any incoherence. Generally, if a fallacy is found in one's arguments and one values intellectual honesty, the best response is to apologise for the error first and only then attempt to restart the argument. If you don't do this, but try to act as if there was no error, you do avoid loss of face in the eyes of the unthinking that comes from admitting error, but you lose the respect of readers who understood the error and saw the evasion. It is a sad fact that today most people have little awareness of this risk of losing respect in heated arguments, let alone place high importance to it.