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>I suspect that this balance is what we call "good manners" or "politeness". Or "empathy". And I think on an interpersonal level this is easy. You can't force

by mnsc 5y ago

>I suspect that this balance is what we call "good manners" or "politeness". Or "empathy". And I think on an interpersonal level this is easy. You can't force anyone else to be responsible for how you feel about their words, that is true. But if you say to a colleague or a friend that "when you call me X, that makes me feel bad, could you call me Y instead?". Depending on the friend they might want to understand why this feels bad, but they would call you Y from then on. Easy peasy. But on a collective level we aren't yet (if we'll ever be) as developed a civilization to have empathy on that level. So some people want to, with good intentions, extend their empathy to others and write code like this. But seconds later, the creative and determined individual called cVnt_h_ater have bypassed the code and can proudly wear his misogyny on his sleeve.

qwerty456127 5y ago
> the creative and determined individual called cVnt_h_ater have bypassed the code and can proudly wear his misogyny on his sleeve. Why deny him this right? Isn't it convenient to let kids and mentally unhealthy people to identity themselves this obviously? It's always easier when you know what to expect.
- wasmitnetzen 5y ago
  Because if you let them do their thing, they group together, drag more people down to their level and then get one of them elected as president. That's not in my interest.
  - qwerty456127 5y ago
    The idea of hating all women this way is nonsensical for normal people (despite the fact limiting their rights used to be a common tradition, I believe most of the people didn't really hate them) and can only exist in some mentally traumatized people. Seeing someone exercising obvious nonsense rarely triggers you to start doing the same on systematic basis. Electing a president requires a majority vote. Even though majority's intelligence is mediocre by definition, it hardly is SO dumb and sick. Even a rude person with sexist jokes, even a women rights limiting proponent rarely is a real serious passionate misogynist, such will mostly see "cVnt_h_aters" ridiculous too.
marcus_holmes 5y ago
> But on a collective level we aren't yet (if we'll ever be) as developed a civilization to have empathy on that level. I agree. Which is why we have rules around politeness and manners, which roughly conform to same actions as actual empathy. Which makes sense - people don't always have the same level of empathy, there are lots of neurodivergent people who will never understand empathy but who can learn a set of rules that will allow them to avoid social problems. Or at least, we used to. I feel like this respect for being nice to each other so we can all get along is on the wane. Or it might be that I moved to Berlin, and Berliners are famous in Germany for being rude/abrupt, and Germans are famous globally for being direct ;)
- mnsc 5y ago
  > I feel like this respect for being nice to each other so we can all get along is on the wane. I think this is depending on how you see it. The modern landscape with social media makes activists very effective in creating information campaigns that raises awareness of how to be polite in a modern world. Eg. nowadays personal pronouns are complicated business but finding out and respecting individuals chosen pronouns are considered polite. A successful change of culture that increases empathy and respect of fellow humans in general. But the downside is that the opinions of the people who don't want to be polite in this way are also amplified and they may want to resist and pushback that triggers them to be contrary and act with less empathy and politeness to make their point. The thing is, positive changes in culture usually last and backwards reactionary people die so that makes me kinda hopeful.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > Eg. nowadays personal pronouns are complicated business but finding out and respecting individuals chosen pronouns are considered polite. A successful change of culture that increases empathy and respect of fellow humans in general. In one way, that is of course true, and people who just blithely ignore that, or even explicitly refuse to use the pronouns they're asked to, are of course arseholes. But OTOH, it feels like it's getting more and more to keep track of -- at least if you also want to keep up the old norms of "good behaviour" we learned as kids. And perhaps that's precisely why some of us are feeling those old norms are falling by the wayside -- maybe people only have some set amount of attention to spend on this stuff, and if something new is added, something else gets crowded out? If that's the case, do we know for sure that it's unequivocally a good thing? I'm not quite certain.
pjc50 5y ago
> "when you call me X, that makes me feel bad, could you call me Y instead?" There are absolutely people who will use this as a reason to put X on a billboard.
- mnsc 5y ago
  People, yes. Friends, no.

by mnsc 5y ago

qwerty456127 5y ago

> the creative and determined individual called cVnt_h_ater have bypassed the code and can proudly wear his misogyny on his sleeve. Why deny him this right? Isn't it convenient to let kids and mentally unhealthy people to identity themselves this obviously? It's always easier when you know what to expect.

wasmitnetzen 5y ago
Because if you let them do their thing, they group together, drag more people down to their level and then get one of them elected as president. That's not in my interest.
- qwerty456127 5y ago
  The idea of hating all women this way is nonsensical for normal people (despite the fact limiting their rights used to be a common tradition, I believe most of the people didn't really hate them) and can only exist in some mentally traumatized people. Seeing someone exercising obvious nonsense rarely triggers you to start doing the same on systematic basis. Electing a president requires a majority vote. Even though majority's intelligence is mediocre by definition, it hardly is SO dumb and sick. Even a rude person with sexist jokes, even a women rights limiting proponent rarely is a real serious passionate misogynist, such will mostly see "cVnt_h_aters" ridiculous too.

marcus_holmes 5y ago

> But on a collective level we aren't yet (if we'll ever be) as developed a civilization to have empathy on that level. I agree. Which is why we have rules around politeness and manners, which roughly conform to same actions as actual empathy. Which makes sense - people don't always have the same level of empathy, there are lots of neurodivergent people who will never understand empathy but who can learn a set of rules that will allow them to avoid social problems. Or at least, we used to. I feel like this respect for being nice to each other so we can all get along is on the wane. Or it might be that I moved to Berlin, and Berliners are famous in Germany for being rude/abrupt, and Germans are famous globally for being direct ;)

mnsc 5y ago
> I feel like this respect for being nice to each other so we can all get along is on the wane. I think this is depending on how you see it. The modern landscape with social media makes activists very effective in creating information campaigns that raises awareness of how to be polite in a modern world. Eg. nowadays personal pronouns are complicated business but finding out and respecting individuals chosen pronouns are considered polite. A successful change of culture that increases empathy and respect of fellow humans in general. But the downside is that the opinions of the people who don't want to be polite in this way are also amplified and they may want to resist and pushback that triggers them to be contrary and act with less empathy and politeness to make their point. The thing is, positive changes in culture usually last and backwards reactionary people die so that makes me kinda hopeful.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Eg. nowadays personal pronouns are complicated business but finding out and respecting individuals chosen pronouns are considered polite. A successful change of culture that increases empathy and respect of fellow humans in general. In one way, that is of course true, and people who just blithely ignore that, or even explicitly refuse to use the pronouns they're asked to, are of course arseholes. But OTOH, it feels like it's getting more and more to keep track of -- at least if you also want to keep up the old norms of "good behaviour" we learned as kids. And perhaps that's precisely why some of us are feeling those old norms are falling by the wayside -- maybe people only have some set amount of attention to spend on this stuff, and if something new is added, something else gets crowded out? If that's the case, do we know for sure that it's unequivocally a good thing? I'm not quite certain.

pjc50 5y ago

> "when you call me X, that makes me feel bad, could you call me Y instead?" There are absolutely people who will use this as a reason to put X on a billboard.

mnsc 5y ago
People, yes. Friends, no.