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This gets to the heart of the issue with these discussions - people like yourself asserting non-factual statements based on the equally (if not more so) incorre

This gets to the heart of the issue with these discussions - people like yourself asserting non-factual statements based on the equally (if not more so) incorrect assertions they hear from others. Where are your sources? Why do you feel like you need to state things as fact when you just don't like something? You are exactly incorrect. Cash represents the overwhelming supermajority of laundered funds and ongoing credit extended across criminal elements. https://www.swift.com/sites/default/files/files/swift_bae_report_Follow-The%20Money.pdf https://www.swift.com/sites/default/files/files/swift_bae_re... Cash is the heart of the criminal economy, crypto is creating a transparency that doesn't exist in traditional peer to peer physical transaction systems like cash or IOUs. I'm done with this, nothing productive is coming out of this conversation.

Osmose 5y ago
You talk about sources but like where in that pdf does it speak to your claim (cash is the majority of laundered funds) or to the parents separate claim (the percentage of crypto that is used for scams, fraud, etc. is higher than the percentage of cash used for the same). It just talks about _how_ the crime works, not the statistics in question.
wpietri 5y ago
I didn't state any facts. I started with "I bet" and included "must be". Those are pretty clear opinion markers. Your reply is also confused. Is the majority of money laundering denominated in USD and other real currencies? I'd believe it, because that's where the money is. But I'm saying the proportion of Bitcoin transactions that are fincrime-related is surely much higher than that of total USD transactions. This seems pretty obvious to me given that Bitcoin is much less useful for quotidian transactions, but much more useful to people engaged in assorted financial crime. That's unsurprising given how much cryptocurrency advocates tout privacy/anonymity as features. But if you think otherwise, feel free to show the data that has convinced you otherwise. Also, it's bad form to read something, go on a rant, and then declare the conversation over. Especially when the rant is incorrect.
- arthurcolle 5y ago
  From https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/overview.html https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/overview.htm... > The estimated amount of money laundered globally in one year is 2 - 5% of global GDP, or $800 billion - $2 trillion in current US dollars. Due to the clandestine nature of money-laundering, it is however difficult to estimate the total amount of money that goes through the laundering cycle. From Treasury via ABA Banking Journal (https://bankingjournal.aba.com/2015/06/treasury-u-s-money-laundering-totals-300b-annually/ https://bankingjournal.aba.com/2015/06/treasury-u-s-money-la... and https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/2018NMLRA_12-18.pdf https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/2018NMLRA_12-18.p...): > The United States continues to estimate that domestic financial crime, excluding tax evasion, generates approximately $300 billion of proceeds for potential laundering, based on the sources and analysis cited in the 2015 NMLRA. Criminal prosecutions and law enforcement investigations indicate that most of the money earned from crime in the United States stays in the United States, but also that the United States is an attractive destination for illicit funds generated abroad.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - wpietri 5y ago
    Ok? None of that contradicts my notion.

Osmose 5y ago

You talk about sources but like where in that pdf does it speak to your claim (cash is the majority of laundered funds) or to the parents separate claim (the percentage of crypto that is used for scams, fraud, etc. is higher than the percentage of cash used for the same). It just talks about _how_ the crime works, not the statistics in question.

wpietri 5y ago

I didn't state any facts. I started with "I bet" and included "must be". Those are pretty clear opinion markers. Your reply is also confused. Is the majority of money laundering denominated in USD and other real currencies? I'd believe it, because that's where the money is. But I'm saying the proportion of Bitcoin transactions that are fincrime-related is surely much higher than that of total USD transactions. This seems pretty obvious to me given that Bitcoin is much less useful for quotidian transactions, but much more useful to people engaged in assorted financial crime. That's unsurprising given how much cryptocurrency advocates tout privacy/anonymity as features. But if you think otherwise, feel free to show the data that has convinced you otherwise. Also, it's bad form to read something, go on a rant, and then declare the conversation over. Especially when the rant is incorrect.

arthurcolle 5y ago
From https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/overview.html https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/overview.htm... > The estimated amount of money laundered globally in one year is 2 - 5% of global GDP, or $800 billion - $2 trillion in current US dollars. Due to the clandestine nature of money-laundering, it is however difficult to estimate the total amount of money that goes through the laundering cycle. From Treasury via ABA Banking Journal (https://bankingjournal.aba.com/2015/06/treasury-u-s-money-laundering-totals-300b-annually/ https://bankingjournal.aba.com/2015/06/treasury-u-s-money-la... and https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/2018NMLRA_12-18.pdf https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/2018NMLRA_12-18.p...): > The United States continues to estimate that domestic financial crime, excluding tax evasion, generates approximately $300 billion of proceeds for potential laundering, based on the sources and analysis cited in the 2015 NMLRA. Criminal prosecutions and law enforcement investigations indicate that most of the money earned from crime in the United States stays in the United States, but also that the United States is an attractive destination for illicit funds generated abroad.
- deleted 5y ago
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- wpietri 5y ago
  Ok? None of that contradicts my notion.