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Using this dumb definition of a ponzi scheme, every stock IPO that doesn't pay a dividend is a ponzi scheme. Bitcoin is valuable because people agree on using

Using this dumb definition of a ponzi scheme, every stock IPO that doesn't pay a dividend is a ponzi scheme. Bitcoin is valuable because people agree on using it as a form of money, and it is limited in supply. Nobody is making more bitcoins from nowhere to pay out existing bitcoin holders. Idiotic definition of a ponzi scheme crafted intentionally to include bitcoin, fails to include bitcoin, but does cover many valid economic activities.

smt88 5y ago
> every stock IPO that doesn't pay a dividend is a ponzi scheme I agree with you in spirit. Stocks that will never pay a dividend (if you can see the future) are worth $0. Most stocks are effectively speculative assets. The difference is that a stock has a real, legal value: ownership of a company that has cashflows. If that company is liquidated, you have rights as a shareholder. You may also be able to vote on important decisions that the company makes. Bitcoin is an asset that, by definition, never will pay a dividend. It is a stock that we know with certainty is worth $0. Its only value is speculative. In that sense, Bitcoin is very much like fiat currency: its value is imaginary and based on how other people value it. But if we're comparing Bitcoin and, say, USD, then Bitcoin is by far the worse currency because it's deflationary and unbelievably expensive to transact. That's why, in places with unstable currencies, people mostly shelter their money in USD. If cryptocurrencies factor into it, it's because those currencies are seen as easier ways to transact USD. People who need their assets to be spendable on a daily basis don't hold them in Bitcoin.
- ltbarcly3 5y ago
  What do you even mean when you say something is worth 0? How can a share of stock that you can sell at any time for an amount much larger than 0 be 'worth 0'? Things are worth what you can sell them for, and that is the only definition of value that isn't nonsense. You want currency you hold to be deflationary. Deflation is a systemic problem for economies, not individuals with cash in hand. Its not expensive to transact, it is extremely cheap. You go find a provider to let you accept payments from anyone in the world for a smaller % of the transaction and that will cover chargebacks. It doesn't exist, and you are not doing an honest analysis when you compare the transaction cost of walmart instead of yourself, or the cost of exchanging cash without the costs of moving people to the same location to exchange it. You have no practical legal right to anything as a shareholder. If a company is liquidated the shareholders get nothing in practice. Management controls the finances and expenditures of a company, and a majority of shareholders control management. This control is usually only given to special classes of stock that is for the most part impossible to buy. Why do you think people fight over control of companies? Management routinely steal huge sums by allocating it for the direct benefit of some shareholders over others.

smt88 5y ago

> every stock IPO that doesn't pay a dividend is a ponzi scheme I agree with you in spirit. Stocks that will never pay a dividend (if you can see the future) are worth $0. Most stocks are effectively speculative assets. The difference is that a stock has a real, legal value: ownership of a company that has cashflows. If that company is liquidated, you have rights as a shareholder. You may also be able to vote on important decisions that the company makes. Bitcoin is an asset that, by definition, never will pay a dividend. It is a stock that we know with certainty is worth $0. Its only value is speculative. In that sense, Bitcoin is very much like fiat currency: its value is imaginary and based on how other people value it. But if we're comparing Bitcoin and, say, USD, then Bitcoin is by far the worse currency because it's deflationary and unbelievably expensive to transact. That's why, in places with unstable currencies, people mostly shelter their money in USD. If cryptocurrencies factor into it, it's because those currencies are seen as easier ways to transact USD. People who need their assets to be spendable on a daily basis don't hold them in Bitcoin.

ltbarcly3 5y ago
What do you even mean when you say something is worth 0? How can a share of stock that you can sell at any time for an amount much larger than 0 be 'worth 0'? Things are worth what you can sell them for, and that is the only definition of value that isn't nonsense. You want currency you hold to be deflationary. Deflation is a systemic problem for economies, not individuals with cash in hand. Its not expensive to transact, it is extremely cheap. You go find a provider to let you accept payments from anyone in the world for a smaller % of the transaction and that will cover chargebacks. It doesn't exist, and you are not doing an honest analysis when you compare the transaction cost of walmart instead of yourself, or the cost of exchanging cash without the costs of moving people to the same location to exchange it. You have no practical legal right to anything as a shareholder. If a company is liquidated the shareholders get nothing in practice. Management controls the finances and expenditures of a company, and a majority of shareholders control management. This control is usually only given to special classes of stock that is for the most part impossible to buy. Why do you think people fight over control of companies? Management routinely steal huge sums by allocating it for the direct benefit of some shareholders over others.