7 ms·

Had a discussion with a buddy and his doc wife Monday. She pointed out that the immune system might learn some weird protein on the variant X particle. Which le

Had a discussion with a buddy and his doc wife Monday. She pointed out that the immune system might learn some weird protein on the variant X particle. Which leaves you open to variant Y which doesn’t have that protein. But the spike protein the current generation of vaxes target is common to all of the variants.

throwawaysea 5y ago
I’ve read something different, which is that natural immunity likely comes with recognition of multiple markers, not just the spike protein, and therefore gives you the ability to respond to a wider range of variants. Now I’m not sure what to believe. But in the absence of definitive and absolute evidence, I lean in favor of individual freedoms and civil liberties rather than mandates.
- mc32 5y ago
  The Science article's[1] subheading quotes: "Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine" [1]https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...
  - lamassu 5y ago
    https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/comparing-sars-cov-2-natural-immunity-to-vaccine-induced-immunity-reinfections-versus-breakthrough-infections/ https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/comparing-sars-cov-2-natural... "In addition, individuals who were previously infected who received one dose of the Pfizer vaccine were even more protected from breakthrough infection than the naturally infected group. There were no deaths in any of the groups examined. Given that previously infected individuals may have had multiple infections prior to the study period, the overall applicability of the study to all populations needs more clarification. Lastly, these findings should not be taken as an endorsement that getting infected is a better overall option for protection than the highly effective vaccines that are available as only those who survived initial infection were eligible for analysis."
    - mc32 5y ago
      Isn't that apples and oranges comparisons? They're not talking effective rates only relative rates. They could also claim having mRNA + adenovirus vaccines improve efficacy (not sure if there is such a study) but that does not say anything about mRNA vs adenovirus by themselves.
gruez 5y ago
Is this backed by actual evidence? It seems like you can come up with plausible sounding reasons for both sides (edit: see sibling comment), so your anecdote isn't really convincing.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
torstenvl 5y ago
That is nonsensical. For that argument to be sound, you'd have to assume simultaneously: (a) that not all COVID variants have spike proteins so they don't all induce antibodies to it; and (b) that all COVID variants have spike proteins so the antibodies from the mRNA vaccines are widely applicable.
- bluGill 5y ago
  No, you only have to assume there are other proteins for the immune system to attack other than the spike. Which we already know is true, though it isn't clear if attacking them works, we know there is more than the spike protein in the virus.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - torstenvl 5y ago
    False. That logic does not hold unless you also assume that the presence of protein B means no antibodies to protein A will be developed. There is zero evidence of such a phenomenon. Indeed, that's why many high-specificity antibody tests require an immunoassay — the infection causes antibodies to each of the envelope proteins. If antibody development were an either-or proposition as is required by your argument, immunoassays would not — could not — work.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      > the infection causes antibodies to each of the envelope proteins. That's interesting, I was not aware of that there was always antibodies to all envelope proteins. Do you have links to more information on the topic? How does this work when some of the envelope proteins are common, ones that occur in other non-viral sources?
      - torstenvl 5y ago
        There aren't always antibodies to all envelope proteins. That's too strong of a claim. Sometimes antibodies to early stage precursors fade before antibodies to others are developed. I'd recommend reading about the HIV virion as an example with multiple proteins and needing multiple detected antibodies for a positive diagnosis. It's a good virus to read about due to the immense amount of research put into it.
adolph 5y ago
> the spike protein the current generation of vaxes target is common to all of the variants. Until it wanes, which you don’t know when it does, so you take a booster until you get a breakthrough case because you aren’t immunized, you got a biological shortcut.
- shlant 5y ago
  > you got a biological shortcut What do you mean by this?
  - adolph 5y ago
    In traditional vaccines a weakened or dead virus is placed in the human. In a way it’s playing with fire but there’s enough experience using them that it’s built a reasonable safety record. With mRNA some cells in your body are tricked into growing so they have some unique but supposedly harmless aspect of the virus, like the spikes. [0] The immune system encounters these cells, recognizes them as not right, terminates and communicates to the larger system to be on the lookout for the molecular markers it found. If traditional vaccine is a trial by fire, then mRNA is trial by flashlight. It simulates some aspects of the fire but not others. Immunization by mRNA may be better, sufficient or worse than the traditional immunity from actual virus material. I don’t think anyone knows for sure yet but I do know enough big money is riding on mRNA that it may be made to look like the only right approach even if it is only one of several good approaches. 0. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...
mgarfias 5y ago
Jesus people, I just passed on what an actual doc told me. There was no anecdote, no evidence, just what she told me. Calm the fuck down.
- angelzen 5y ago
  California has instituted state-wide vaccine mandates for kids in schools. LA has instituted vaccine mandates for restaurants, gyms and malls. The long term safety and efficacy of the vaccines is yet to be proven. Literally, since not enough time has passed since the vaccines were conceived. Authorities are significantly overreaching. This is a crisis. Perhaps people have all the reasons to be touchy. For comparison, Norway just lifted covid restrictions. Apparently they have access to a different science than US West coast authorities.

throwawaysea 5y ago

I’ve read something different, which is that natural immunity likely comes with recognition of multiple markers, not just the spike protein, and therefore gives you the ability to respond to a wider range of variants. Now I’m not sure what to believe. But in the absence of definitive and absolute evidence, I lean in favor of individual freedoms and civil liberties rather than mandates.

mc32 5y ago
The Science article's[1] subheading quotes: "Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine" [1]https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...
- lamassu 5y ago
  https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/comparing-sars-cov-2-natural-immunity-to-vaccine-induced-immunity-reinfections-versus-breakthrough-infections/ https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/comparing-sars-cov-2-natural... "In addition, individuals who were previously infected who received one dose of the Pfizer vaccine were even more protected from breakthrough infection than the naturally infected group. There were no deaths in any of the groups examined. Given that previously infected individuals may have had multiple infections prior to the study period, the overall applicability of the study to all populations needs more clarification. Lastly, these findings should not be taken as an endorsement that getting infected is a better overall option for protection than the highly effective vaccines that are available as only those who survived initial infection were eligible for analysis."
  - mc32 5y ago
    Isn't that apples and oranges comparisons? They're not talking effective rates only relative rates. They could also claim having mRNA + adenovirus vaccines improve efficacy (not sure if there is such a study) but that does not say anything about mRNA vs adenovirus by themselves.

gruez 5y ago

Is this backed by actual evidence? It seems like you can come up with plausible sounding reasons for both sides (edit: see sibling comment), so your anecdote isn't really convincing.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

torstenvl 5y ago

That is nonsensical. For that argument to be sound, you'd have to assume simultaneously: (a) that not all COVID variants have spike proteins so they don't all induce antibodies to it; and (b) that all COVID variants have spike proteins so the antibodies from the mRNA vaccines are widely applicable.

bluGill 5y ago
No, you only have to assume there are other proteins for the immune system to attack other than the spike. Which we already know is true, though it isn't clear if attacking them works, we know there is more than the spike protein in the virus.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- torstenvl 5y ago
  False. That logic does not hold unless you also assume that the presence of protein B means no antibodies to protein A will be developed. There is zero evidence of such a phenomenon. Indeed, that's why many high-specificity antibody tests require an immunoassay — the infection causes antibodies to each of the envelope proteins. If antibody development were an either-or proposition as is required by your argument, immunoassays would not — could not — work.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > the infection causes antibodies to each of the envelope proteins. That's interesting, I was not aware of that there was always antibodies to all envelope proteins. Do you have links to more information on the topic? How does this work when some of the envelope proteins are common, ones that occur in other non-viral sources?
    - torstenvl 5y ago
      There aren't always antibodies to all envelope proteins. That's too strong of a claim. Sometimes antibodies to early stage precursors fade before antibodies to others are developed. I'd recommend reading about the HIV virion as an example with multiple proteins and needing multiple detected antibodies for a positive diagnosis. It's a good virus to read about due to the immense amount of research put into it.

adolph 5y ago

> the spike protein the current generation of vaxes target is common to all of the variants. Until it wanes, which you don’t know when it does, so you take a booster until you get a breakthrough case because you aren’t immunized, you got a biological shortcut.

shlant 5y ago
> you got a biological shortcut What do you mean by this?
- adolph 5y ago
  In traditional vaccines a weakened or dead virus is placed in the human. In a way it’s playing with fire but there’s enough experience using them that it’s built a reasonable safety record. With mRNA some cells in your body are tricked into growing so they have some unique but supposedly harmless aspect of the virus, like the spikes. [0] The immune system encounters these cells, recognizes them as not right, terminates and communicates to the larger system to be on the lookout for the molecular markers it found. If traditional vaccine is a trial by fire, then mRNA is trial by flashlight. It simulates some aspects of the fire but not others. Immunization by mRNA may be better, sufficient or worse than the traditional immunity from actual virus material. I don’t think anyone knows for sure yet but I do know enough big money is riding on mRNA that it may be made to look like the only right approach even if it is only one of several good approaches. 0. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...

mgarfias 5y ago

Jesus people, I just passed on what an actual doc told me. There was no anecdote, no evidence, just what she told me. Calm the fuck down.

angelzen 5y ago
California has instituted state-wide vaccine mandates for kids in schools. LA has instituted vaccine mandates for restaurants, gyms and malls. The long term safety and efficacy of the vaccines is yet to be proven. Literally, since not enough time has passed since the vaccines were conceived. Authorities are significantly overreaching. This is a crisis. Perhaps people have all the reasons to be touchy. For comparison, Norway just lifted covid restrictions. Apparently they have access to a different science than US West coast authorities.