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As a citizen of resource rich Australia this story of foresight and self-determination in a nation just about makes me weep.

mensetmanusman 5y ago
“ But imagine how large our stock pile of toilet paper could be!”
drekipus 5y ago
What is this comment even meant to convey? The post is about a person who has foresignt and self-determination, what is Australia meant to do about it? Further, Australia is a lot more isolated than Norway. (Australian BTW)
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > The post is about a person who has foresignt and self-determination, what is Australia meant to do about it? Australia has done the opposite with their (our? I'm an ex-pat) natural resources.
- AlexCoventry 5y ago
  I think it's meant to convey grief that Australia has allowed itself to be exploited by foreign miners, and waste the wealth that its natural resources could have generated.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    hasn't Australia consistently had uninterrupted economic growth? Australia has the highest median household wealth of any country in the world. https://www.statista.com/chart/19651/countries-with-highest-per-capita-average-and-median-wealth/ https://www.statista.com/chart/19651/countries-with-highest-...
    - AlexCoventry 5y ago
      But its net debt is something like 40% of GDP, whereas Norway's is something like -110%. https://knoema.com/atlas/Australia/topics/Economy/Financial-Sector-General-Government-finance/General-government-net-debt-percent-of-GDP https://knoema.com/atlas/Australia/topics/Economy/Financial-... https://knoema.com/atlas/Norway/topics/Economy/Financial-Sector-General-Government-finance/General-government-net-debt-percent-of-GDP https://knoema.com/atlas/Norway/topics/Economy/Financial-Sec...
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_property_bubble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_property_bubble
- ggm 5y ago
  Australia like Britain, did not use Oil royalties to establish abiding sovereign funds to persist after the oil ran out. Instead, the royalty stream has been used to draw down debt, and to replace taxation as an income stream in the present, but oftentimes has led to wasted spend on vanity projects, or on build out of infrastructure purely for extractive industry (mining, oil, gas) which in turn is hoped to generate revenue, but alas, not until a very long time in the future. Displaced costs in forward income estimates, much as in the movie industry, mean some mines and oilwells basically never pay tax, but generate collossal revenue which disappears into company consolidated debt. Its a huge rort of the model. There are royalties, but they are 'subverted' out of the picture. "its scotland's oil" was about Maggie Thatcher, and how the revenue was spent. Now scotland has independent tax raising powers, the border with england for sea resources was carefully restruck to favour england (look on a map to the boundaries, they aren't what you might think) Australia has soverign wealth funds. Just, not made with revenue from this kind of industry. This kind of industry dominates the political landscape and has impeded the uptake of solar and wind, and replacement of coal for power generation. I don't mean silently: this is a quite overt distortion, active, such that major corporates actually have withdrawn from the australian mining and minerals council because its like the NRA, single-issue distorting of the polity. In the early 2000s an Australian labor government tried to raise a tax analogous to a petrol royalties and revenue tax, and was pretty much de-elected by sectional interests on the strength of industry opposition. (the PRRT exists. the MRRT was voted down) Mining employs around 40,000 people in a nation of 25 million. Solar and Wind and Tourism would probably employ more people. But, the voting effects of mining establish a lock on our senate (and sometimes, lower house) which make it next to impossible to see change. The industry is running the government, at one remove. I don't believe for a minute Norway is all peaches and cream, but it probably has a better sense of cohesion around its role in the world, and the benefits of the sovereign fund, and future money, and de-carbonising the economy. Norway was an extremely poor, -to the extent of massive nutritional death in winter-poor economy. It's moved the dial to a different place, and done it quite carefully, economically speaking. (Norwegian settlers in the USA and Canada came because of a potato famine) We're envious. (well, the Australians who don't derive income directly from mining, oil or gas)
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
alexitorg 5y ago
I am not sure that comparing only sovereign wealth funds per capita tells the whole story. For instance Australia has a lot more private wealth saved up than Norway. At a lower GINI coefficient as well! I am also not sure that the major resource exports like iron ore and coal have the same ability to extract cartel rent extraction of oil, which is a lot more concentrated in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe... Wealth per capita $USD 2021: Country Median Mean Australia 238k 484k Norway 118k 276k The Australian compulsory super-annuation scheme has made Australian long term pension sustainability much better than the rest of the world. How much of the wealth that could have gone into a sovereign fund has gone into private savings instead? I don't know if Norway or Australia did better.
- somedangedname 5y ago
  Is doing well be a bar against doing better? The wealthy have no hangups about taking profit so why should the rest of us? Mining activity is 10% of Australia's GDP. Mineral land rights in Australia are property of the government so why do overseas and private-domestic operators get to make all the profit? When Norway's example shows us that a publicly funded and owned industry was possible! Too late now though - the last attempt to extract more value out of a booming industry led to the downfall of the government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerals_Resource_Rent_Tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerals_Resource_Rent_Tax.
- femto 5y ago
  Another part of the story is to compare the public mindedness of Farouk Al-Kasim with Gina Rinehart and Clive Palmer.
- eirki 5y ago
  > For instance Australia has a lot more private wealth saved up than Norway. At a lower GINI coefficient as well! This is demonstrably false: https://data.oecd.org/chart/6tTs https://data.oecd.org/chart/6tTs
- djrobstep 5y ago
  Australia's superannuation system is a disaster. Compared to Norway's SWF: - Fees are 20x larger as a proportion of AUM ($30 billion a year, nearly as much as the military budget, and 2x what the country spends on electricity) - The assets are overwhelmingly owned by people who are already rich (Norway's SWF shares the wealth equally) - Super has totally failed to prevent retirement poverty (elderly single women are the most impoverished demographic in Australia).
simorley 5y ago
What are you talking about? Australia hasn't had a recession in decades. Australia has done well with all the resources it stole from the aborigines. Most people living in australia has never experienced an economic downturn. https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-australia-hasnt-had-a-recession-in-over-25-years-223703860.html https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-australia-hasnt-had-a-... Australia hasn't had a recession since the early 90s and you are complaining?
- chad_oliver 5y ago
  While you're absolutely correct that Australia hasn't had a recession in that time, this hides the fact that there have been periods when GDP _per-capita_ has declined. Or to put it another way: Australia's recessions have been hidden by immigration-driven growth. Of course, immigration-driven growth is great! But for people on the ground, what matters is GDP per capita, not total GDP.
  - simorley 5y ago
    > Of course, immigration-driven growth is great! But for people on the ground, what matters is GDP per capita, not total GDP. If GDP per capita is what you are interested in, you don't want immigration as it increases the "capita" part. Also, Australia's growth had nothing to do with immigration. It had everything to do with China and China's economic growth.
- conz 5y ago
  Australia hasn't had a recession since the early 90s and you are complaining? The point that was being attempted was this: Yes, Australia has done well. But it could have done much better if it didn't squander its mineral wealth and hadn't removed an actually-beneficial-to-society mining tax. Just look at Norway as the example of how much better we could have done. In turn, we wouldn't be lumbered with egregious mining billionaires like Clive Palmer and Gina Rinehart, who - among other monstrosities - heavily back climate-disruption denial.
djrobstep 5y ago
Australia has an even bigger tragedy in this area: The superannuation system, which could have been a sovereign wealth fund 3x the size of Norway's, but instead was set up as individual accounts that privatize wealth instead of make it public, and amplify inequality instead of reduce it.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

“ But imagine how large our stock pile of toilet paper could be!”

drekipus 5y ago

What is this comment even meant to convey? The post is about a person who has foresignt and self-determination, what is Australia meant to do about it? Further, Australia is a lot more isolated than Norway. (Australian BTW)

ceejayoz 5y ago
> The post is about a person who has foresignt and self-determination, what is Australia meant to do about it? Australia has done the opposite with their (our? I'm an ex-pat) natural resources.
AlexCoventry 5y ago
I think it's meant to convey grief that Australia has allowed itself to be exploited by foreign miners, and waste the wealth that its natural resources could have generated.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  hasn't Australia consistently had uninterrupted economic growth? Australia has the highest median household wealth of any country in the world. https://www.statista.com/chart/19651/countries-with-highest-per-capita-average-and-median-wealth/ https://www.statista.com/chart/19651/countries-with-highest-...
  - AlexCoventry 5y ago
    But its net debt is something like 40% of GDP, whereas Norway's is something like -110%. https://knoema.com/atlas/Australia/topics/Economy/Financial-Sector-General-Government-finance/General-government-net-debt-percent-of-GDP https://knoema.com/atlas/Australia/topics/Economy/Financial-... https://knoema.com/atlas/Norway/topics/Economy/Financial-Sector-General-Government-finance/General-government-net-debt-percent-of-GDP https://knoema.com/atlas/Norway/topics/Economy/Financial-Sec...
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_property_bubble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_property_bubble
ggm 5y ago
Australia like Britain, did not use Oil royalties to establish abiding sovereign funds to persist after the oil ran out. Instead, the royalty stream has been used to draw down debt, and to replace taxation as an income stream in the present, but oftentimes has led to wasted spend on vanity projects, or on build out of infrastructure purely for extractive industry (mining, oil, gas) which in turn is hoped to generate revenue, but alas, not until a very long time in the future. Displaced costs in forward income estimates, much as in the movie industry, mean some mines and oilwells basically never pay tax, but generate collossal revenue which disappears into company consolidated debt. Its a huge rort of the model. There are royalties, but they are 'subverted' out of the picture. "its scotland's oil" was about Maggie Thatcher, and how the revenue was spent. Now scotland has independent tax raising powers, the border with england for sea resources was carefully restruck to favour england (look on a map to the boundaries, they aren't what you might think) Australia has soverign wealth funds. Just, not made with revenue from this kind of industry. This kind of industry dominates the political landscape and has impeded the uptake of solar and wind, and replacement of coal for power generation. I don't mean silently: this is a quite overt distortion, active, such that major corporates actually have withdrawn from the australian mining and minerals council because its like the NRA, single-issue distorting of the polity. In the early 2000s an Australian labor government tried to raise a tax analogous to a petrol royalties and revenue tax, and was pretty much de-elected by sectional interests on the strength of industry opposition. (the PRRT exists. the MRRT was voted down) Mining employs around 40,000 people in a nation of 25 million. Solar and Wind and Tourism would probably employ more people. But, the voting effects of mining establish a lock on our senate (and sometimes, lower house) which make it next to impossible to see change. The industry is running the government, at one remove. I don't believe for a minute Norway is all peaches and cream, but it probably has a better sense of cohesion around its role in the world, and the benefits of the sovereign fund, and future money, and de-carbonising the economy. Norway was an extremely poor, -to the extent of massive nutritional death in winter-poor economy. It's moved the dial to a different place, and done it quite carefully, economically speaking. (Norwegian settlers in the USA and Canada came because of a potato famine) We're envious. (well, the Australians who don't derive income directly from mining, oil or gas)
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago

alexitorg 5y ago

I am not sure that comparing only sovereign wealth funds per capita tells the whole story. For instance Australia has a lot more private wealth saved up than Norway. At a lower GINI coefficient as well! I am also not sure that the major resource exports like iron ore and coal have the same ability to extract cartel rent extraction of oil, which is a lot more concentrated in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe... Wealth per capita $USD 2021: Country Median Mean Australia 238k 484k Norway 118k 276k The Australian compulsory super-annuation scheme has made Australian long term pension sustainability much better than the rest of the world. How much of the wealth that could have gone into a sovereign fund has gone into private savings instead? I don't know if Norway or Australia did better.

somedangedname 5y ago
Is doing well be a bar against doing better? The wealthy have no hangups about taking profit so why should the rest of us? Mining activity is 10% of Australia's GDP. Mineral land rights in Australia are property of the government so why do overseas and private-domestic operators get to make all the profit? When Norway's example shows us that a publicly funded and owned industry was possible! Too late now though - the last attempt to extract more value out of a booming industry led to the downfall of the government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerals_Resource_Rent_Tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerals_Resource_Rent_Tax.
femto 5y ago
Another part of the story is to compare the public mindedness of Farouk Al-Kasim with Gina Rinehart and Clive Palmer.
eirki 5y ago
> For instance Australia has a lot more private wealth saved up than Norway. At a lower GINI coefficient as well! This is demonstrably false: https://data.oecd.org/chart/6tTs https://data.oecd.org/chart/6tTs
djrobstep 5y ago
Australia's superannuation system is a disaster. Compared to Norway's SWF: - Fees are 20x larger as a proportion of AUM ($30 billion a year, nearly as much as the military budget, and 2x what the country spends on electricity) - The assets are overwhelmingly owned by people who are already rich (Norway's SWF shares the wealth equally) - Super has totally failed to prevent retirement poverty (elderly single women are the most impoverished demographic in Australia).

simorley 5y ago

What are you talking about? Australia hasn't had a recession in decades. Australia has done well with all the resources it stole from the aborigines. Most people living in australia has never experienced an economic downturn. https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-australia-hasnt-had-a-recession-in-over-25-years-223703860.html https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-australia-hasnt-had-a-... Australia hasn't had a recession since the early 90s and you are complaining?

chad_oliver 5y ago
While you're absolutely correct that Australia hasn't had a recession in that time, this hides the fact that there have been periods when GDP _per-capita_ has declined. Or to put it another way: Australia's recessions have been hidden by immigration-driven growth. Of course, immigration-driven growth is great! But for people on the ground, what matters is GDP per capita, not total GDP.
- simorley 5y ago
  > Of course, immigration-driven growth is great! But for people on the ground, what matters is GDP per capita, not total GDP. If GDP per capita is what you are interested in, you don't want immigration as it increases the "capita" part. Also, Australia's growth had nothing to do with immigration. It had everything to do with China and China's economic growth.
conz 5y ago
Australia hasn't had a recession since the early 90s and you are complaining? The point that was being attempted was this: Yes, Australia has done well. But it could have done much better if it didn't squander its mineral wealth and hadn't removed an actually-beneficial-to-society mining tax. Just look at Norway as the example of how much better we could have done. In turn, we wouldn't be lumbered with egregious mining billionaires like Clive Palmer and Gina Rinehart, who - among other monstrosities - heavily back climate-disruption denial.

djrobstep 5y ago

Australia has an even bigger tragedy in this area: The superannuation system, which could have been a sovereign wealth fund 3x the size of Norway's, but instead was set up as individual accounts that privatize wealth instead of make it public, and amplify inequality instead of reduce it.