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The blame here lies squarely at the feet of Blizzard. Any game that CAN be automated deserves to be. Instead of making a game that is interesting, they made

The blame here lies squarely at the feet of Blizzard. Any game that CAN be automated deserves to be. Instead of making a game that is interesting, they made a glorified Skinner box, because that's the proven formula to rake in the bucks via addiction. Like rats pressing a lever to get a pellet, the game substitutes repetitive, mindless activites for actual plot or compelling narrative. Then they cracked down on bots. They install spyware on your machine called "Warden" and snoop what you're up to. They even nailed people using macros, programmable keyboards, and the commercial version of Wine (to play on Linux). It's relatively easy to automate various game activities, but it's hard to make a bot that can convincingly fake being a human, especially if an admin starts asking questions or if they CAPTCHA you in some way. Thus they try to make sure an actual human is sitting there doing the mindless activities all day long. This creates pressure to use the cheapest human labor possible to get these repetitive, mind-numbing tasks out of the way. The sweatshop element could be eliminated by simply allowing scripting. Of course that wouldn't fix the game's inherent design flaws -- UO, EQ, and WoW all suffer(ed) from the same ones.

euccastro 19y ago
[Disclaimer: I work for a MMOG company that is not Blizzard.] I'm with you, and still I can see how it makes business sense for Blizzard to discard your suggestions: - WoW is doing well, gold farming and all. If Blizzard can contain the problem in tolerable levels by playing whack-a-mole with the most ostensible farmers, then it's not a huge deal for them. - Actual plot and compelling narrative aren't what Blizzard brands are made of. The more personality a world has, the harder it gets to keep it appealing for everyone. Stereotypical/generic/mildly cartoonish themes are easier to mass market. - I believe allowing scripting would make any MMO better (long story, and this is not a game design forum; email me if you want to discuss this further), but it would favor programming savvy players, discouraging the vast majority of your audience. This would also make problems like security or game balancing harder to deal with. I believe you could make an interesting MMOG that has mass appeal, but unfortunately it's a harder design and execution problem than if you relax the 'interestingness' constraint. I wouldn't want to come across as cynical, though. I'd rather make something I love even if it makes less money, and I can see how smaller studios can make a niche for themselves, and even get a shot at big time eventually, by committing to outstanding game design. But WoW? They won't mess with their cash cow, and it makes full sense.
Goladus 19y ago
You can't bring a shovel onto a soccer field. You can't drop kick a basketball during a game. Why shouldn't Blizzard prohibit tools and activities that are not deemed fair? My only problem with the Warden is that they did it without telling users it's there and what it's doing.
Goladus 19y ago
I don't understand why this post is getting so many points. Any computer game can be automated if you can implement an AI that is good enough. Saying that "any game that can be automated deserves to me" seems kind of silly to me. Calling WoW a glorified Skinner box seems like a similarly useless thing to say. At that level of lexical precision, news.yc is also a "glorified Skinner box," as is driving to work in the morning and going out for dinner at night. I don't really see the point of the analogy. It's easy to automate "various game activities," but certainly not all game activities and not most of the ones that really matter. It would be more accurate to say that there are some specific activities that can be automated, but the expense of that versus the reliability of a human operator is not worth it. MMOG environments are too volatile, even without considering admins. Warcraft actually allows a great deal of scripting. Coming from a game like Everquest, the level of automation Blizzard allows is mind-boggling.
- gyro_robo 19y ago
  The point you are missing is that WoW becomes more enjoyable if its repetitive, mindless parts are automated. There would be no point to automating News.YC discussion or going out to dinner, but driving to work surely would be a candidate for automation for most people. The Skinner Box analogy is directly applicable to mindless, repetitive behavior like clicking to kill monsters over and over again, while thoughtful discussion does not fit into that category. Similarly, you could create a robot to watch movies for you or go on dates for you, but there'd be no point, as you'd be missing out on the enjoyment. The statement about whether something can be automated refers not to mere physical possibility, but to whether it improves your subjective human experience. Thus you can't really automate watching movies or going out on dates because you can't have someone else live life for you. The benefit you gain is all in the experience of it, not the accomplishment of it. The mindless activities these MMOGs subject you to are all of the accomplishment variety. Those shouldn't even exist, but if they do, they deserve to be automated. Then people enjoy the experience of being able to engage in the non-mindless activities. The amount of scripting WoW allows is trivial compared to what you can actually do.
  - Goladus 19y ago

euccastro 19y ago

[Disclaimer: I work for a MMOG company that is not Blizzard.] I'm with you, and still I can see how it makes business sense for Blizzard to discard your suggestions: - WoW is doing well, gold farming and all. If Blizzard can contain the problem in tolerable levels by playing whack-a-mole with the most ostensible farmers, then it's not a huge deal for them. - Actual plot and compelling narrative aren't what Blizzard brands are made of. The more personality a world has, the harder it gets to keep it appealing for everyone. Stereotypical/generic/mildly cartoonish themes are easier to mass market. - I believe allowing scripting would make any MMO better (long story, and this is not a game design forum; email me if you want to discuss this further), but it would favor programming savvy players, discouraging the vast majority of your audience. This would also make problems like security or game balancing harder to deal with. I believe you could make an interesting MMOG that has mass appeal, but unfortunately it's a harder design and execution problem than if you relax the 'interestingness' constraint. I wouldn't want to come across as cynical, though. I'd rather make something I love even if it makes less money, and I can see how smaller studios can make a niche for themselves, and even get a shot at big time eventually, by committing to outstanding game design. But WoW? They won't mess with their cash cow, and it makes full sense.

Goladus 19y ago

You can't bring a shovel onto a soccer field. You can't drop kick a basketball during a game. Why shouldn't Blizzard prohibit tools and activities that are not deemed fair? My only problem with the Warden is that they did it without telling users it's there and what it's doing.

Goladus 19y ago

I don't understand why this post is getting so many points. Any computer game can be automated if you can implement an AI that is good enough. Saying that "any game that can be automated deserves to me" seems kind of silly to me. Calling WoW a glorified Skinner box seems like a similarly useless thing to say. At that level of lexical precision, news.yc is also a "glorified Skinner box," as is driving to work in the morning and going out for dinner at night. I don't really see the point of the analogy. It's easy to automate "various game activities," but certainly not all game activities and not most of the ones that really matter. It would be more accurate to say that there are some specific activities that can be automated, but the expense of that versus the reliability of a human operator is not worth it. MMOG environments are too volatile, even without considering admins. Warcraft actually allows a great deal of scripting. Coming from a game like Everquest, the level of automation Blizzard allows is mind-boggling.

gyro_robo 19y ago
The point you are missing is that WoW becomes more enjoyable if its repetitive, mindless parts are automated. There would be no point to automating News.YC discussion or going out to dinner, but driving to work surely would be a candidate for automation for most people. The Skinner Box analogy is directly applicable to mindless, repetitive behavior like clicking to kill monsters over and over again, while thoughtful discussion does not fit into that category. Similarly, you could create a robot to watch movies for you or go on dates for you, but there'd be no point, as you'd be missing out on the enjoyment. The statement about whether something can be automated refers not to mere physical possibility, but to whether it improves your subjective human experience. Thus you can't really automate watching movies or going out on dates because you can't have someone else live life for you. The benefit you gain is all in the experience of it, not the accomplishment of it. The mindless activities these MMOGs subject you to are all of the accomplishment variety. Those shouldn't even exist, but if they do, they deserve to be automated. Then people enjoy the experience of being able to engage in the non-mindless activities. The amount of scripting WoW allows is trivial compared to what you can actually do.
- Goladus 19y ago