4 ms·

KYC/audit regs aside, it's also because the account belongs to the bank. The money is held in trust on your behalf, but the amounts are a liability on the insti

KYC/audit regs aside, it's also because the account belongs to the bank. The money is held in trust on your behalf, but the amounts are a liability on the institution's balance sheet. This is also why an increase in the balance of your deposit account is referred to as a credit; the statement is written from the bank's perspective, not yours. What you have is partial control of these funds, via instructions to your bank, electronic or otherwise, but since it is merely operated on your behalf, you can't unilaterally delete the account. What you can do, is terminate the relationship with your bank.

jimmydorry 5y ago
This falls astray of the new Apple requirement though, as I understand it.
- inopinatus 5y ago
  You might think that at first, but the distinction can be made for data as well. The argument goes, when is your data, not really your data? How about, when it's actually my records, of your use, of my system. If you allow such a construct, then "deleting your account" could mean, your immediate personal details (or perhaps even just your access credentials) are erased in some fashion, but nothing else. This is how legislation like the GDPR gets motivated, of course. The Apple guidelines reference "usage data" elsewhere, and I imagine that's for similar reasons. The deletion clause itself, rather notably, doesn't.
- doikor 5y ago
  The requirement only applies if one can create the account in the app. At least here in Finland that is not an option in any of the local banks apps I have used.
olau 5y ago
I think this way of framing it is perhaps misleading. Yes, it's plainly true that the bank owns (or rents) the hardware, software, databases, etc. and that you're paying for a service through various fees. But IP is much less clear, and the view that "it's my database so it's my data" is not actually universally legal when the data concerns humans.
- wahern 5y ago
  > But IP is much less clear, and the view that "it's my database so it's my data" is not actually universally legal when the data concerns humans. The whole notion that someone could have a legal property interest in personal data collected by others is exceedingly modern. Even the most abstract scholarly work presaging the concept can only be traced back a few decades. Similarly, privacy as a concrete, distinct legal concept is only slightly older. (Notwithstanding the historical narrative gymnastics legal and social policy advocates often perform in their attempts to appeal to tradition.) Suffice it to say, modern concepts regarding privacy and personal data aren't very useful in understanding banking practices and property regimes that can be traced centuries, if not millennia, in nearly identical forms.
  - buran77 5y ago
    > apps that allow for account creation must also allow users to initiate deletion of their account from within the app This is a relatively straight forward request that maybe doesn't go as far as most people imagine here. Pressing "delete" doesn't instantly delete all user data and it's not expected to. In some cases there may be subsequent steps and some data may be kept for legal reasons*. The point is very sensible, if I can request the creation of an account or subscription easily in the app, the reverse process should be just as straight forward. If an app can give a one button "create-subscribe-pay" experience then when it comes to deletion you shouldn't suddenly fill out paper forms, or send letters at specific times in the month. And that's if you can even find the info on how to do it in the first place. Now you can trigger the deletion and know that they have to do something about it, at the very least get clear instructions on how to proceed. *When it comes to banks, they are subject to laws and regulation that many other companies/services don't have to deal with. Which is why Apples makes this provision: > We encourage you to review any laws that may require you to maintain certain types of data, and to make sure your app clearly explains what data your app collects, how it collects that data, all uses of that data, your data retention/deletion policies, and more as described in the guideline
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
dahfizz 5y ago
Couldn't you make that same argument for any online service? "I own the database and servers, its my account that I operate on the user's behalf. Therefore they cannot delete the account".
- inopinatus 5y ago
  You can make that argument, and many do, and some courts may even be suckered into falling for it when push comes to shove. In a more jurisprudent analysis, however, it relies on a false parity between consumer and company in negotiating power. Legislation like the GDPR is motivated in part to nullify such arguments.

jimmydorry 5y ago

This falls astray of the new Apple requirement though, as I understand it.

inopinatus 5y ago
You might think that at first, but the distinction can be made for data as well. The argument goes, when is your data, not really your data? How about, when it's actually my records, of your use, of my system. If you allow such a construct, then "deleting your account" could mean, your immediate personal details (or perhaps even just your access credentials) are erased in some fashion, but nothing else. This is how legislation like the GDPR gets motivated, of course. The Apple guidelines reference "usage data" elsewhere, and I imagine that's for similar reasons. The deletion clause itself, rather notably, doesn't.
doikor 5y ago
The requirement only applies if one can create the account in the app. At least here in Finland that is not an option in any of the local banks apps I have used.

olau 5y ago

I think this way of framing it is perhaps misleading. Yes, it's plainly true that the bank owns (or rents) the hardware, software, databases, etc. and that you're paying for a service through various fees. But IP is much less clear, and the view that "it's my database so it's my data" is not actually universally legal when the data concerns humans.

wahern 5y ago
> But IP is much less clear, and the view that "it's my database so it's my data" is not actually universally legal when the data concerns humans. The whole notion that someone could have a legal property interest in personal data collected by others is exceedingly modern. Even the most abstract scholarly work presaging the concept can only be traced back a few decades. Similarly, privacy as a concrete, distinct legal concept is only slightly older. (Notwithstanding the historical narrative gymnastics legal and social policy advocates often perform in their attempts to appeal to tradition.) Suffice it to say, modern concepts regarding privacy and personal data aren't very useful in understanding banking practices and property regimes that can be traced centuries, if not millennia, in nearly identical forms.
- buran77 5y ago
  > apps that allow for account creation must also allow users to initiate deletion of their account from within the app This is a relatively straight forward request that maybe doesn't go as far as most people imagine here. Pressing "delete" doesn't instantly delete all user data and it's not expected to. In some cases there may be subsequent steps and some data may be kept for legal reasons*. The point is very sensible, if I can request the creation of an account or subscription easily in the app, the reverse process should be just as straight forward. If an app can give a one button "create-subscribe-pay" experience then when it comes to deletion you shouldn't suddenly fill out paper forms, or send letters at specific times in the month. And that's if you can even find the info on how to do it in the first place. Now you can trigger the deletion and know that they have to do something about it, at the very least get clear instructions on how to proceed. *When it comes to banks, they are subject to laws and regulation that many other companies/services don't have to deal with. Which is why Apples makes this provision: > We encourage you to review any laws that may require you to maintain certain types of data, and to make sure your app clearly explains what data your app collects, how it collects that data, all uses of that data, your data retention/deletion policies, and more as described in the guideline
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

dahfizz 5y ago

Couldn't you make that same argument for any online service? "I own the database and servers, its my account that I operate on the user's behalf. Therefore they cannot delete the account".

inopinatus 5y ago
You can make that argument, and many do, and some courts may even be suckered into falling for it when push comes to shove. In a more jurisprudent analysis, however, it relies on a false parity between consumer and company in negotiating power. Legislation like the GDPR is motivated in part to nullify such arguments.