4 ms·

> if opportunity was truly equal, the data should not show a big gap in the choices of work made between races I can understand that would be the case wrt race

by jjcon 5y ago

> if opportunity was truly equal, the data should not show a big gap in the choices of work made between races I can understand that would be the case wrt race but what about different cultures?

didibus 5y ago
I want to preface that it's a very strong claim to say that the true and accurate cause would be culture, and claiming the possibility isn't good enough, you'd need to strongly demonstrate evidence that this is the real contributing factor. Having said that, Culture could be an explanation, but it would still be a problem, because children should have equal opportunity, and if it were true that culture can affect your opportunities, then it wouldn't be fair to have some children born into a culture that diminishes their opportunity. That's why we have a lot of laws already related to restricting certain ways you can raise your kids, like mandatory school, bans on corporal punishments, requirements to meet their basic needs, etc. Beyond that, there are questions around culture as well, such as, would it be culture on its own? Or culture within a particular environment that might favor against certain cultures? And this might not even be in an actively and conscious discriminatory fashion. It could be as an accidental effect of compounding factors. For example, imagine that a particular market buying power is dominated by mostly people of culture A, they have the money, but as someone of culture B, you might not be able to understand or relate to that market and thus fail to appeal to them, meaning your business will be less successful as an effect of that. Another big question around culture would be historical, for example, if you include in culture say a tendency to be illiterate, or a lack of insistence on intellectualism or education or reading, etc. It is possible the historical context influenced such a culture and did so unfairly. My point basically is that first I think it's very early to really advance that the cause could be cultural and there are many other possibilities just as likely if not more. And even if culture is a factor, it's not a justification, and we should still strive to address the unequal opportunities it creates.
- jjcon 5y ago
  > claiming the possibility isn't good enough, you'd need to strongly demonstrate evidence This is true for anyone making any claim here, including the claim that it is race alone (which i am pointing out is unaccounted for in op post) > it wouldn't be fair to have some children born into a culture that diminishes their opportunity I wholeheartedly disagree. It depends on what a culture values and monetary outcomes isnt everything. As an example, American culture is very different from my own (based in EU though ive lived and am frequently in the US). Our culture is generally less work centric, which may look like worse outcomes on paper, but there are so many things that cant be or aren't measured.
  - didibus 5y ago
    > This is true for anyone making any claim here, including the claim that it is race alone (which i am pointing out is unaccounted for in op post) That's not the claim being made, the claim is the observed gap when grouping the data by race. That is a fact of the data as represented. Why that gap exists is an open question, and so is how to potentially reduce the gap. I think the fact that some people like you jump to believe immediately that it could be due to culture is just showing of your inherent bias. The same is true for those immediately jumping to believe it is caused by racism, that's showing of their inherent bias too. Bias is unsubtiantied beliefs that you bring to the search space. > Our culture is generally less work centric, which may look like worse outcomes on paper, but there are so many things that cant be or aren't measured Three things. The first is that the article is about American jobs in the US. That means culturally we're talking about sub-groups within an American cultural context. The second is that we're comparing the same jobs in the same sector against each other. And the third is that I'd be interested in testing your theory, if true, it would mean that it should predict that if you grouped US tech salaries by your EU based culture, we should also see a lower pay compared to white American culture. I think that be interesting if the data was available for it. And if that does show, then I'd start to say that your theory is on the path of being more demonstrated correct, since it shows predictive capabilities.
- mbrodersen 5y ago
  I will claim that all races have different sub-cultures and that sub-cultures are more important than race. If you are white and grow up in a poor uneducated sub-culture where education is strongly discouraged, the opportunities you have will be very different from a white person growing up in a sub-culture where going to University is expected and encouraged. The same goes for any other race.
  - didibus 5y ago
    Yes, I agree, the environment probably matters to some extent, even possibly to a large (maybe even largest) extent. I think it all matters what people mean by culture. Is access to capital, good education, mentoring, support in developmental growth, time (time to learn, study, play, etc.), and safety/care (loving parents, health issues taken care of, well fed, comfortable living/sleeping, etc.) is included in "culture" or is that separate? Anyways, I wouldn't be surprised if those environmental elements play a big factor, and it's likely that some races simply line up more perfectly with those things as well which could explain why in turn you see the data show a gap between races. But if by culture we mean things like music, native spoken and written language, traditions and customs, spiritual/religious beliefs, foods, clothes, art, folklore, etc. Well I don't know, I feel those would likely play less of a role. I think some people might also imply "values" when they mean "culture". But I feel that possibly translates into environmental factors. Like if you don't value caring for your kid, helping them with their homework, encouraging them to read, learn, go to school, and all that, well it probably just leads to similarly deficient environmental factors, like maybe ending up in an environment with bad education, no mentorship, lack of safety and all that.
    - mbrodersen 5y ago
      I agree. Culture is a large umbrella term. I am mainly talking about the unquestioned assumptions, values and expectations of people living in the sub-culture. Especially how the sub-culture, and especially parents, value (or not) education and intellectual pursuits. People of different races but sharing compatible sub-cultures have a lot more in common than people of the same race that don’t.

by jjcon 5y ago

> if opportunity was truly equal, the data should not show a big gap in the choices of work made between races I can understand that would be the case wrt race but what about different cultures?

didibus 5y ago

I want to preface that it's a very strong claim to say that the true and accurate cause would be culture, and claiming the possibility isn't good enough, you'd need to strongly demonstrate evidence that this is the real contributing factor. Having said that, Culture could be an explanation, but it would still be a problem, because children should have equal opportunity, and if it were true that culture can affect your opportunities, then it wouldn't be fair to have some children born into a culture that diminishes their opportunity. That's why we have a lot of laws already related to restricting certain ways you can raise your kids, like mandatory school, bans on corporal punishments, requirements to meet their basic needs, etc. Beyond that, there are questions around culture as well, such as, would it be culture on its own? Or culture within a particular environment that might favor against certain cultures? And this might not even be in an actively and conscious discriminatory fashion. It could be as an accidental effect of compounding factors. For example, imagine that a particular market buying power is dominated by mostly people of culture A, they have the money, but as someone of culture B, you might not be able to understand or relate to that market and thus fail to appeal to them, meaning your business will be less successful as an effect of that. Another big question around culture would be historical, for example, if you include in culture say a tendency to be illiterate, or a lack of insistence on intellectualism or education or reading, etc. It is possible the historical context influenced such a culture and did so unfairly. My point basically is that first I think it's very early to really advance that the cause could be cultural and there are many other possibilities just as likely if not more. And even if culture is a factor, it's not a justification, and we should still strive to address the unequal opportunities it creates.

jjcon 5y ago
> claiming the possibility isn't good enough, you'd need to strongly demonstrate evidence This is true for anyone making any claim here, including the claim that it is race alone (which i am pointing out is unaccounted for in op post) > it wouldn't be fair to have some children born into a culture that diminishes their opportunity I wholeheartedly disagree. It depends on what a culture values and monetary outcomes isnt everything. As an example, American culture is very different from my own (based in EU though ive lived and am frequently in the US). Our culture is generally less work centric, which may look like worse outcomes on paper, but there are so many things that cant be or aren't measured.
- didibus 5y ago
  > This is true for anyone making any claim here, including the claim that it is race alone (which i am pointing out is unaccounted for in op post) That's not the claim being made, the claim is the observed gap when grouping the data by race. That is a fact of the data as represented. Why that gap exists is an open question, and so is how to potentially reduce the gap. I think the fact that some people like you jump to believe immediately that it could be due to culture is just showing of your inherent bias. The same is true for those immediately jumping to believe it is caused by racism, that's showing of their inherent bias too. Bias is unsubtiantied beliefs that you bring to the search space. > Our culture is generally less work centric, which may look like worse outcomes on paper, but there are so many things that cant be or aren't measured Three things. The first is that the article is about American jobs in the US. That means culturally we're talking about sub-groups within an American cultural context. The second is that we're comparing the same jobs in the same sector against each other. And the third is that I'd be interested in testing your theory, if true, it would mean that it should predict that if you grouped US tech salaries by your EU based culture, we should also see a lower pay compared to white American culture. I think that be interesting if the data was available for it. And if that does show, then I'd start to say that your theory is on the path of being more demonstrated correct, since it shows predictive capabilities.
mbrodersen 5y ago
I will claim that all races have different sub-cultures and that sub-cultures are more important than race. If you are white and grow up in a poor uneducated sub-culture where education is strongly discouraged, the opportunities you have will be very different from a white person growing up in a sub-culture where going to University is expected and encouraged. The same goes for any other race.
- didibus 5y ago
  Yes, I agree, the environment probably matters to some extent, even possibly to a large (maybe even largest) extent. I think it all matters what people mean by culture. Is access to capital, good education, mentoring, support in developmental growth, time (time to learn, study, play, etc.), and safety/care (loving parents, health issues taken care of, well fed, comfortable living/sleeping, etc.) is included in "culture" or is that separate? Anyways, I wouldn't be surprised if those environmental elements play a big factor, and it's likely that some races simply line up more perfectly with those things as well which could explain why in turn you see the data show a gap between races. But if by culture we mean things like music, native spoken and written language, traditions and customs, spiritual/religious beliefs, foods, clothes, art, folklore, etc. Well I don't know, I feel those would likely play less of a role. I think some people might also imply "values" when they mean "culture". But I feel that possibly translates into environmental factors. Like if you don't value caring for your kid, helping them with their homework, encouraging them to read, learn, go to school, and all that, well it probably just leads to similarly deficient environmental factors, like maybe ending up in an environment with bad education, no mentorship, lack of safety and all that.
  - mbrodersen 5y ago
    I agree. Culture is a large umbrella term. I am mainly talking about the unquestioned assumptions, values and expectations of people living in the sub-culture. Especially how the sub-culture, and especially parents, value (or not) education and intellectual pursuits. People of different races but sharing compatible sub-cultures have a lot more in common than people of the same race that don’t.