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That's mostly because of the lack of midmarket cars. I bought a used sub-$20k electrical car a few months ago; it can be done. The market needs pressure to cre

That's mostly because of the lack of midmarket cars. I bought a used sub-$20k electrical car a few months ago; it can be done. The market needs pressure to create cars in that price range; right now EVs are mostly luxury cars. Tesla is not the car we should be aiming for; what we need are things in the class of the E-Golf, Kia Niro, FFE, Fiat 500E etc. that are the size of a Corolla and cost 20k CAD or less. Until that's common on the market, the value proposition is flawed and nobody is buying an electric car to save money except for people who buy used cars that someone else has eaten the depreciation on (like me), or people who drive a LOT. Everyone else is basically buying these things as luxury items, and the cost doesn't matter, especially when you can get near-0% financing over 5+ years.....

_3u10 5y ago
Yeah, used EVs depreciate quickly. I'm comparing new Tesla Plaids to the C8 Corvette and due to depreciation its looking like the C8 will be much cheaper, and much more fun to drive. The C8 will drop 30k in 5 years according to C6/C7 data, whereas a Plaid will likely drop 70k. If I spend less than $800 a month on fuel the C8 is cheaper. Currently C8s are appreciating their first year, which is really weird. The Model S is really chonky at almost 5000 lbs, which is the same as a 4Runner.
- philg_jr 5y ago
  Corvette vs Model S is kind of a weird comparison, especially with the weight comparison. One is a coupe and one is a sedan. Maybe compare the Model S to an M5 or E63?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  Please donate to your local food bank. Many people are hungry. You can help. Perhaps this one is local to you: https://www.accfb.org/ https://www.accfb.org/
  - _3u10 5y ago
    Great idea thanks for the suggestion, however, I'll keep people employed instead so they don't need the food bank. “I believe the best social program is a job.” — Ronald Reagan
    - zipswitch 5y ago
      Jobs are a cost. Jobs are necessary to maintain our society and civilization, but they are not a positive good in and of themselves.
    - et2o 5y ago
      Young tech employees with valuable transferable skills vs. typical food bank user (not meant as a slight!) are different populations most likely.
      - _3u10 5y ago
        I was leaning towards the C8, rather than the Tesla. It's bigger picture thinking, warmer summers, snowier winters, and turning major metropolitan areas back in coral reefs. Sadly, SF is too hilly for most of it to drown. Freedom is a full tank.
        TaylorAlexander 5y ago
        Well enjoy it. I’ve had a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 with upgraded turbos and later a 2004 Audi S4 V8 with exhaust. Had a little Saturn Sky redline too. It’s all a lot of fun for sure. I’m 37 now though and thinking more about the people around me. Happy driving a Honda now and trying to make things better for all people. Freedom is helping others. I hope some day you get there.
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      Many of the people who need the food bank have jobs. Wages just aren’t high enough for some. You could donate a few hundred dollars and make a world of difference for a lot of people.
- filoleg 5y ago
  > Yeah, used EVs depreciate quickly. Yeah, not sure about that. Currently, used Model 3 LR AWD from 2019 with around 10k-20k mileage go for just a few grand cheaper than what I bought it for (new) in 2019[0]. 0. https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2019-Tesla-Model-3-Long-Range-AWD-t84896 https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2019-Tesla-Model-3-Long...
  - cat199 5y ago
    current used car market is supposedly historically high vs new - probably better to do a longer or earlier comparison before making conclusions, esp. if comparing a fairly new 'used' vehicle
  - _3u10 5y ago
    Yeah the 2020 C8 sells used for $10-20k above MSRP but the market is weird right now. I used the historical data for the Model S. Will definitely check out the 3.
- ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago
  > Currently C8s are appreciating their first year, which is really weird. Why is that weird? That seems typical for new, extremely popular cars where supply isn’t meeting demand. It happened years ago with the PT Cruiser, and when Mini (re-)entered the US market. It’s happened with Teslas too. Right now it’s happening with the C8 Corvette and Ford Bronco, which are both really tough to find on dealer lots. In 5 or 10 years, they’ll have depreciated like more typical used cars. The tough part is guessing when supply will become sufficient (and values will drop).
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    That funny about the Mini, because it's such a shit car. I thought it looked like a fun little car but I drove one yesterday for the first time and it was garbage. Interior is crappy lightweight plastic too. Do some research on them and you'll see that they are trouble-prone as well.
  - _3u10 5y ago
    Oh totally, I understand why its happening, but from a statistical point of view its hard to model. eg. If a car appreciates 20% in the first year, when it usually depreciates 20% does this affect its 5 year depreciation, or does it regress to the mean?
neutronicus 5y ago
You also need to make it realistic for people to own EVs without also owning a single-family home. My wife and I probably would have bought a PHEV, but we lived in an apartment so ... we went Hybrid instead. As it is the EV subsidies are really just helping homeowners buy luxury cars which seems a little backwards
- et2o 5y ago
  This is a great point. I would have loved to buy an EV (or trade in my current gas vehicle which I don’t use all that much for an EV), but the logistical annoyances of charging it in a busy city appear to be substantial.
- thinkcontext 5y ago
  > As it is the EV subsidies are really just helping homeowners buy luxury cars which seems a little backwards The goal was to drive scale so that the price would drop, this has been successful. In the US the federal subsidy phases out after 500K. Tesla and GM have both passed that and have models that are less than the US average for a new car of $40K. Many non-tree hugger analysts project that upfront EV costs will be equal to ICE by the middle of the decade.
javajosh 5y ago
>I bought a used sub-$20k electrical car a few months ago Out of curiosity, what make and model? I'm trying to find an EV and like everyone is saying, it's all luxury vehicles.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  If you think of it from the manufacturers perspective it makes sense. Supply of batteries is constrained so of course they are going to use them in cars they can make the most money from. This problem will solve itself over time. This is why I think it was a mistake not to use plugin hybrids as a stepping stone to full EV's. They might be marginally more complex but you could make five times as many cars with the same battery capacity.
- sebmellen 5y ago
  A used Chevy Spark is a great car if you don’t need more than 100 miles of range in a charge. I love mine, and it’s unbelievably zippy in terms of torque/acceleration.

_3u10 5y ago

Yeah, used EVs depreciate quickly. I'm comparing new Tesla Plaids to the C8 Corvette and due to depreciation its looking like the C8 will be much cheaper, and much more fun to drive. The C8 will drop 30k in 5 years according to C6/C7 data, whereas a Plaid will likely drop 70k. If I spend less than $800 a month on fuel the C8 is cheaper. Currently C8s are appreciating their first year, which is really weird. The Model S is really chonky at almost 5000 lbs, which is the same as a 4Runner.

philg_jr 5y ago
Corvette vs Model S is kind of a weird comparison, especially with the weight comparison. One is a coupe and one is a sedan. Maybe compare the Model S to an M5 or E63?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
TaylorAlexander 5y ago
Please donate to your local food bank. Many people are hungry. You can help. Perhaps this one is local to you: https://www.accfb.org/ https://www.accfb.org/
- _3u10 5y ago
  Great idea thanks for the suggestion, however, I'll keep people employed instead so they don't need the food bank. “I believe the best social program is a job.” — Ronald Reagan
  - zipswitch 5y ago
    Jobs are a cost. Jobs are necessary to maintain our society and civilization, but they are not a positive good in and of themselves.
  - et2o 5y ago
    Young tech employees with valuable transferable skills vs. typical food bank user (not meant as a slight!) are different populations most likely.
    - _3u10 5y ago
      I was leaning towards the C8, rather than the Tesla. It's bigger picture thinking, warmer summers, snowier winters, and turning major metropolitan areas back in coral reefs. Sadly, SF is too hilly for most of it to drown. Freedom is a full tank.
      - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
        Well enjoy it. I’ve had a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 with upgraded turbos and later a 2004 Audi S4 V8 with exhaust. Had a little Saturn Sky redline too. It’s all a lot of fun for sure. I’m 37 now though and thinking more about the people around me. Happy driving a Honda now and trying to make things better for all people. Freedom is helping others. I hope some day you get there.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    Many of the people who need the food bank have jobs. Wages just aren’t high enough for some. You could donate a few hundred dollars and make a world of difference for a lot of people.
filoleg 5y ago
> Yeah, used EVs depreciate quickly. Yeah, not sure about that. Currently, used Model 3 LR AWD from 2019 with around 10k-20k mileage go for just a few grand cheaper than what I bought it for (new) in 2019[0]. 0. https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2019-Tesla-Model-3-Long-Range-AWD-t84896 https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2019-Tesla-Model-3-Long...
- cat199 5y ago
  current used car market is supposedly historically high vs new - probably better to do a longer or earlier comparison before making conclusions, esp. if comparing a fairly new 'used' vehicle
- _3u10 5y ago
  Yeah the 2020 C8 sells used for $10-20k above MSRP but the market is weird right now. I used the historical data for the Model S. Will definitely check out the 3.
ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago
> Currently C8s are appreciating their first year, which is really weird. Why is that weird? That seems typical for new, extremely popular cars where supply isn’t meeting demand. It happened years ago with the PT Cruiser, and when Mini (re-)entered the US market. It’s happened with Teslas too. Right now it’s happening with the C8 Corvette and Ford Bronco, which are both really tough to find on dealer lots. In 5 or 10 years, they’ll have depreciated like more typical used cars. The tough part is guessing when supply will become sufficient (and values will drop).
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  That funny about the Mini, because it's such a shit car. I thought it looked like a fun little car but I drove one yesterday for the first time and it was garbage. Interior is crappy lightweight plastic too. Do some research on them and you'll see that they are trouble-prone as well.
- _3u10 5y ago
  Oh totally, I understand why its happening, but from a statistical point of view its hard to model. eg. If a car appreciates 20% in the first year, when it usually depreciates 20% does this affect its 5 year depreciation, or does it regress to the mean?

neutronicus 5y ago

You also need to make it realistic for people to own EVs without also owning a single-family home. My wife and I probably would have bought a PHEV, but we lived in an apartment so ... we went Hybrid instead. As it is the EV subsidies are really just helping homeowners buy luxury cars which seems a little backwards

et2o 5y ago
This is a great point. I would have loved to buy an EV (or trade in my current gas vehicle which I don’t use all that much for an EV), but the logistical annoyances of charging it in a busy city appear to be substantial.
thinkcontext 5y ago
> As it is the EV subsidies are really just helping homeowners buy luxury cars which seems a little backwards The goal was to drive scale so that the price would drop, this has been successful. In the US the federal subsidy phases out after 500K. Tesla and GM have both passed that and have models that are less than the US average for a new car of $40K. Many non-tree hugger analysts project that upfront EV costs will be equal to ICE by the middle of the decade.

javajosh 5y ago

>I bought a used sub-$20k electrical car a few months ago Out of curiosity, what make and model? I'm trying to find an EV and like everyone is saying, it's all luxury vehicles.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
If you think of it from the manufacturers perspective it makes sense. Supply of batteries is constrained so of course they are going to use them in cars they can make the most money from. This problem will solve itself over time. This is why I think it was a mistake not to use plugin hybrids as a stepping stone to full EV's. They might be marginally more complex but you could make five times as many cars with the same battery capacity.
sebmellen 5y ago
A used Chevy Spark is a great car if you don’t need more than 100 miles of range in a charge. I love mine, and it’s unbelievably zippy in terms of torque/acceleration.