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Does anyone else find it hard to personally connect with the well-researched claim that people respond with a fight-or-flight response to ideas that challenge t

by ewzimm 5y ago

Does anyone else find it hard to personally connect with the well-researched claim that people respond with a fight-or-flight response to ideas that challenge their core beliefs? I've always found ideas to be more interesting the more they challenge my core beliefs. This is true of math and science, but especially true of things like religion. I remember how wonderful it was as a teenager to find challenges to the ideas I was raised with, debating my positions with people online, and appreciating losing debates and having my mind opened to new ideas.

htrp 5y ago
Public key encryption, especially PGP, is useless in a modern computing context. Windows has solved almost all identity management issues for the end-user base. (did that trigger an emotional response?? It bothered me to write it)
- mjevans 5y ago
  Sadly, I agree with the first half; for normal end users anyway. (Open)PGP / GNUpg are uselessly cumbersome, slow to adapt standards, useful tools that are ill-suited to the needs of most end users and have horrifically bad UI. The second half is total bunk though, and I'd like to hear how you think that's possibly the case. Maybe there's an angle I'm missing since I don't use that platform for those things. I suspect it was just made up to see what the reactions were.
  - htrp 5y ago
    I took two of the most awful things that bother me about general purpose computing (and likely the larger HN community) and typed them in to see if that would trigger an emotional response. My heart rate actually jumped 15 bpm writing the second statement.
- ewzimm 5y ago
  That's a great one, and it hits close to home. I'm a huge believer of libre software. I'm typing this response in the vim-based text editor of w3m inside a Terminology terminal on dwm. Just today I fully moved the business I manage off the StatusNet/GNU Social network plus OwnCloud which I've run for the last decade to Microsoft Teams because using AzureAD and Office365 was more efficient for everyone. I haven't changed my beliefs, but I appreciate the best solutions wherever I can find them. If a better option comes along, I'll gladly take it!
gmadsen 5y ago
Yes, as I'm sure many do here as well. Thats because the HN community is not representative of the average population
apeace 5y ago
I can relate to it. Being challenged on a core belief is an uncomfortable feeling for me. I've learned that in order to be open minded I need to pause, listen, and take as much time reflecting as I need before I respond. Oftentimes that means I bow out of a debate with "That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that before, I really want to think about that". For me, it takes a lot of discipline to not give in to the fight-or-flight reaction, and really digest something that challenges me. And I'm not always perfect at it. Ironically, I feel like online platforms should be a better venue for that type of thing, since it's asynchronous and you don't have people in front of you awaiting your response. Obviously it doesn't tend to work that way, though.
betwixthewires 5y ago
I'm like you in this respect, but I wasn't always. It took reflection and effort to realize that being challenged is more stimulating than being defensive, and more productive personally. So yes, I can understand that line of thinking, and yes, it is pretty senseless.
haswell 5y ago
I grew up in a very religious (technically a cult) setting. Earlier in my life, I believed some of it. I bristled at the suggestion that what I'd been taught might be wrong. I relished in the opportunity to practice "apologetics" and debate non-believers - a concept that appealed to me deeply at the time. And then, I grew up and left the bubble. I was fortunate enough to get a job working with people who held diverse viewpoints. I still found myself resisting those viewpoints instinctively, but I learned something that surprised me at the time: the people who held those viewpoints were good people! Who'd have thought? I'd been told those people were the enemy. Unbelievers, sinners, "of this world". As my relationships with those people grew, the cracks in my own belief systems started to grow. I'm now in my mid 30s, and would describe my mindset as that of a scientist. I'm excited to learn when I'm wrong, because it means I learned something new about the world. I often think about the people I left behind, many of whom are still deeply in the bubble. I wonder if I got out because I was predisposed to have an open mind, and when given the opportunity I took it, or if I was just exposed to the right combination of things to help me see the light. All of this to follow up on this: > Does anyone else find it hard to personally connect with the well-researched claim that people respond with a fight-or-flight response to ideas that challenge their core beliefs? I can still feel some kind of connection to that early version of myself, or at least I know it was there and now it's not. This history has established within me some empathy for people who still do react poorly to new ideas, and I've found that it helps me better understand (not accept) the viewpoints of others around me that might otherwise seem insane. Edit: I know it's not great to complain about downvotes, but I'm really puzzled here.
- rvbissell 5y ago
  I'm not sure why you were net-downvoted; your anecdote was on-topic, relative to the comment you replied to. I have a similar background, and your use of 'of this world' may possibly indicate that we both suffered at the hands of the same cult. Within myself, I have personally experienced both the fight-or-flight reaction to dis-confirming datapoints, and also excitement at learning something new. The former happened more often when I was still in the clutches of the cult. I think it boils down to how psychologically invested you are in your beliefs, at the time of feeling the cognitive dissonance.
- 5y ago
BitwiseFool 5y ago
>"that people respond with a fight-or-flight response to ideas that challenge their core beliefs?" I believe a large part of this is due to people's personalities. Namely, Openness and Agreeableness. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits) It stands to reason that someone who is low on openness and not agreeable would react poorly to their core beliefs being challenged, and vice versa.
rvbissell 5y ago
I suspect it depends on how much social and psychological equity you have invested in the core beliefs, when they get challenged. If you've never experienced much indoctrination, I can completely understand why it would be hard for you to relate.
- ewzimm 5y ago
  I’m not sure what you would consider indoctrination, but I was raised in a traditional religion and was considering a religious career when I started debating doctrinal issues with others. It wasn’t a lightly made decision to admit that some of my opponents had better arguments, but I was more grateful to be educated than disappointed that I had been wrong. I have always preferred the knowledge that comes from losing to a worthy opponent to the satisfaction of winning an argument.
  - rvbissell 5y ago
    My reply was influenced by my own experience & biases. While I'm generally negative towards religion overall -- because of the specific one I was brought up under-- I do have to recognize that some people have had healthier, more positive experiences with their own. So when I said 'indoctrination', I was specifically thinking of religions that shield their untenable doctrines by vilifying critical thinking skills.

by ewzimm 5y ago

htrp 5y ago

Public key encryption, especially PGP, is useless in a modern computing context. Windows has solved almost all identity management issues for the end-user base. (did that trigger an emotional response?? It bothered me to write it)

mjevans 5y ago
Sadly, I agree with the first half; for normal end users anyway. (Open)PGP / GNUpg are uselessly cumbersome, slow to adapt standards, useful tools that are ill-suited to the needs of most end users and have horrifically bad UI. The second half is total bunk though, and I'd like to hear how you think that's possibly the case. Maybe there's an angle I'm missing since I don't use that platform for those things. I suspect it was just made up to see what the reactions were.
- htrp 5y ago
  I took two of the most awful things that bother me about general purpose computing (and likely the larger HN community) and typed them in to see if that would trigger an emotional response. My heart rate actually jumped 15 bpm writing the second statement.
ewzimm 5y ago
That's a great one, and it hits close to home. I'm a huge believer of libre software. I'm typing this response in the vim-based text editor of w3m inside a Terminology terminal on dwm. Just today I fully moved the business I manage off the StatusNet/GNU Social network plus OwnCloud which I've run for the last decade to Microsoft Teams because using AzureAD and Office365 was more efficient for everyone. I haven't changed my beliefs, but I appreciate the best solutions wherever I can find them. If a better option comes along, I'll gladly take it!

gmadsen 5y ago

Yes, as I'm sure many do here as well. Thats because the HN community is not representative of the average population

apeace 5y ago

I can relate to it. Being challenged on a core belief is an uncomfortable feeling for me. I've learned that in order to be open minded I need to pause, listen, and take as much time reflecting as I need before I respond. Oftentimes that means I bow out of a debate with "That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that before, I really want to think about that". For me, it takes a lot of discipline to not give in to the fight-or-flight reaction, and really digest something that challenges me. And I'm not always perfect at it. Ironically, I feel like online platforms should be a better venue for that type of thing, since it's asynchronous and you don't have people in front of you awaiting your response. Obviously it doesn't tend to work that way, though.

betwixthewires 5y ago

I'm like you in this respect, but I wasn't always. It took reflection and effort to realize that being challenged is more stimulating than being defensive, and more productive personally. So yes, I can understand that line of thinking, and yes, it is pretty senseless.

haswell 5y ago

I grew up in a very religious (technically a cult) setting. Earlier in my life, I believed some of it. I bristled at the suggestion that what I'd been taught might be wrong. I relished in the opportunity to practice "apologetics" and debate non-believers - a concept that appealed to me deeply at the time. And then, I grew up and left the bubble. I was fortunate enough to get a job working with people who held diverse viewpoints. I still found myself resisting those viewpoints instinctively, but I learned something that surprised me at the time: the people who held those viewpoints were good people! Who'd have thought? I'd been told those people were the enemy. Unbelievers, sinners, "of this world". As my relationships with those people grew, the cracks in my own belief systems started to grow. I'm now in my mid 30s, and would describe my mindset as that of a scientist. I'm excited to learn when I'm wrong, because it means I learned something new about the world. I often think about the people I left behind, many of whom are still deeply in the bubble. I wonder if I got out because I was predisposed to have an open mind, and when given the opportunity I took it, or if I was just exposed to the right combination of things to help me see the light. All of this to follow up on this: > Does anyone else find it hard to personally connect with the well-researched claim that people respond with a fight-or-flight response to ideas that challenge their core beliefs? I can still feel some kind of connection to that early version of myself, or at least I know it was there and now it's not. This history has established within me some empathy for people who still do react poorly to new ideas, and I've found that it helps me better understand (not accept) the viewpoints of others around me that might otherwise seem insane. Edit: I know it's not great to complain about downvotes, but I'm really puzzled here.

rvbissell 5y ago
I'm not sure why you were net-downvoted; your anecdote was on-topic, relative to the comment you replied to. I have a similar background, and your use of 'of this world' may possibly indicate that we both suffered at the hands of the same cult. Within myself, I have personally experienced both the fight-or-flight reaction to dis-confirming datapoints, and also excitement at learning something new. The former happened more often when I was still in the clutches of the cult. I think it boils down to how psychologically invested you are in your beliefs, at the time of feeling the cognitive dissonance.
5y ago

BitwiseFool 5y ago

>"that people respond with a fight-or-flight response to ideas that challenge their core beliefs?" I believe a large part of this is due to people's personalities. Namely, Openness and Agreeableness. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits) It stands to reason that someone who is low on openness and not agreeable would react poorly to their core beliefs being challenged, and vice versa.

rvbissell 5y ago

I suspect it depends on how much social and psychological equity you have invested in the core beliefs, when they get challenged. If you've never experienced much indoctrination, I can completely understand why it would be hard for you to relate.

ewzimm 5y ago
I’m not sure what you would consider indoctrination, but I was raised in a traditional religion and was considering a religious career when I started debating doctrinal issues with others. It wasn’t a lightly made decision to admit that some of my opponents had better arguments, but I was more grateful to be educated than disappointed that I had been wrong. I have always preferred the knowledge that comes from losing to a worthy opponent to the satisfaction of winning an argument.
- rvbissell 5y ago
  My reply was influenced by my own experience & biases. While I'm generally negative towards religion overall -- because of the specific one I was brought up under-- I do have to recognize that some people have had healthier, more positive experiences with their own. So when I said 'indoctrination', I was specifically thinking of religions that shield their untenable doctrines by vilifying critical thinking skills.