3 ms·

People do all the time, since, as I mentioned, it's still the basis of the French legal system. For something straight out of the 18th century, the very first s

by pvg 5y ago

People do all the time, since, as I mentioned, it's still the basis of the French legal system. For something straight out of the 18th century, the very first sentence of the current French constitution begins: Le peuple français proclame solennellement son attachement aux Droits de l’Homme et aux principes de la souveraineté nationale tels qu’ils ont été définis par la Déclaration de 1789 [...] It's just a strange argument to make about two states that were effectively founded right around the same time, espousing broadly similar principles and continue to do so, claiming them as fundamental to their systems of government. Both have had a couple of hundred years' worth of significant reinterpretations of these principles.

hef19898 5y ago
And yet I have yet to hear, even a French politician, say things like "as Napoleon wanted for the French people...". That's my point. Plus, the Code Napoleon dates to 1804, not the original revolution.
- pvg 5y ago
  The president of France giving a speech just a couple of days ago in front of an 18th century French revolutionary slogan: https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b24157621977bd4ff3fd790731e6cdff63617d26/0_147_3967_2380/master/3967.jpg?width=620&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=ec688a5354c8f5496a94aead55d82ae1 https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b24157621977bd4ff3fd790731e6c...
  - hef19898 5y ago
    And their slogan is still on coins (Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite). But how exactly does Napoleon figure into that again? In the way the Founding Fathers still influence modern US politics?
    - pvg 5y ago
      I think I explained how Napoleon fits in, as a response to your original Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is weird bit. France has laws based on an early 19th century system, its motto is an 18th century slogan, its modern constitution straight up begins by #including an 18th century document. I can't actually find a reference to 'founding fathers' in the linked page but maybe the confusion here is a misunderstanding of what that usually means in political speech - it's an invocation (often derived from context) of some principle they espoused or are said to have espoused. It's functionally equivalent to standing in front of that 18th century slogan.
      - mgkimsal 5y ago
        > It's functionally equivalent to standing in front of that 18th century slogan. I don't think it quite is. There's references to phrases from founding documents - which Americans often invoke ("we the people", "shall not be abridged", etc). But there's still an awful lot of reference to "Founding Fathers" specifically. I'm not sure you can listen to more than a few hours of right wing radio in the US without someone invoking Madison, Jefferson or whoever else fits their particular talking point for that moment. The individuals' names, and their writings, are still very much referenced outside of individual slogans.
        pvg 5y ago
        We were talking about the phrase 'founding fathers' specifically and invocations of 100+ years old 'founding' principles of the state generally. If you want invocation of individuals and their writing, here's president Macron again, a year ago: In the Paris Pantheon, a mausoleum to France’s heroes, Macron handed five new citizens their French papers in a solemn ceremony to mark the 150th anniversary of the Third Republic. “At the start of the trial of the attacks of January 2015, I say that to be French is to defend the right to laugh, jest, mock and caricature, of which Voltaire maintained that it is the source of all other rights,” Macron said. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-politics-macron/to-be-french-is-to-defend-the-right-to-mock-macron-tells-new-citizens-idUSKBN25V1O1 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-politics-macron/to... Voltaire, a man born in the 16th century and who is buried at said Pantheon - a temple to the secular saints of France, dedicated in the 18th century - "On April 4, 1791, the Assembly decreed "that this religious church become a temple of the nation, that the tomb of a great man become the altar of liberty.""
  - oblio 5y ago
    The slogan, not the people. Big difference. An idea, not founding saints :-)

by pvg 5y ago

hef19898 5y ago

And yet I have yet to hear, even a French politician, say things like "as Napoleon wanted for the French people...". That's my point. Plus, the Code Napoleon dates to 1804, not the original revolution.

pvg 5y ago
The president of France giving a speech just a couple of days ago in front of an 18th century French revolutionary slogan: https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b24157621977bd4ff3fd790731e6cdff63617d26/0_147_3967_2380/master/3967.jpg?width=620&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=ec688a5354c8f5496a94aead55d82ae1 https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b24157621977bd4ff3fd790731e6c...
- hef19898 5y ago
  And their slogan is still on coins (Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite). But how exactly does Napoleon figure into that again? In the way the Founding Fathers still influence modern US politics?
  - pvg 5y ago
    I think I explained how Napoleon fits in, as a response to your original Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is weird bit. France has laws based on an early 19th century system, its motto is an 18th century slogan, its modern constitution straight up begins by #including an 18th century document. I can't actually find a reference to 'founding fathers' in the linked page but maybe the confusion here is a misunderstanding of what that usually means in political speech - it's an invocation (often derived from context) of some principle they espoused or are said to have espoused. It's functionally equivalent to standing in front of that 18th century slogan.
    - mgkimsal 5y ago
      > It's functionally equivalent to standing in front of that 18th century slogan. I don't think it quite is. There's references to phrases from founding documents - which Americans often invoke ("we the people", "shall not be abridged", etc). But there's still an awful lot of reference to "Founding Fathers" specifically. I'm not sure you can listen to more than a few hours of right wing radio in the US without someone invoking Madison, Jefferson or whoever else fits their particular talking point for that moment. The individuals' names, and their writings, are still very much referenced outside of individual slogans.
      - pvg 5y ago
        We were talking about the phrase 'founding fathers' specifically and invocations of 100+ years old 'founding' principles of the state generally. If you want invocation of individuals and their writing, here's president Macron again, a year ago: In the Paris Pantheon, a mausoleum to France’s heroes, Macron handed five new citizens their French papers in a solemn ceremony to mark the 150th anniversary of the Third Republic. “At the start of the trial of the attacks of January 2015, I say that to be French is to defend the right to laugh, jest, mock and caricature, of which Voltaire maintained that it is the source of all other rights,” Macron said. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-politics-macron/to-be-french-is-to-defend-the-right-to-mock-macron-tells-new-citizens-idUSKBN25V1O1 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-politics-macron/to... Voltaire, a man born in the 16th century and who is buried at said Pantheon - a temple to the secular saints of France, dedicated in the 18th century - "On April 4, 1791, the Assembly decreed "that this religious church become a temple of the nation, that the tomb of a great man become the altar of liberty.""
- oblio 5y ago
  The slogan, not the people. Big difference. An idea, not founding saints :-)