3 ms·

It's not a tragedy of the commons but a tragedy of markets. Markets cannot factor in these externalities. It's a known fault with market systems. And carbon tax

by mempko 5y ago

It's not a tragedy of the commons but a tragedy of markets. Markets cannot factor in these externalities. It's a known fault with market systems. And carbon taxes simply won't work for many reasons (hence why oil companies are pro carbon tax). What we need is carbon rationing. Everyone gets X amount of carbon and prices of things are both in dollars and carbon rations. The rich, who use most of the carbon will have to buy from the poor who use very little. These rations will become more expensive over time until people don't get anymore. So they will only be able to buy things that are carbon neutral/carbon free.

Semaphor 5y ago
> And carbon taxes simply won't work for many reasons That’s a bold statement to leave unsourced.
- pharmakom 5y ago
  It’s true that oil companies favour carbon taxes because they know they won’t ever get passed but by supporting them they can appear to care. https://www.npr.org/2021/07/01/1012138741/exxon-lobbyist-caught-on-video-talks-about-undermining-bidens-climate-push?t=1633503036921 https://www.npr.org/2021/07/01/1012138741/exxon-lobbyist-cau...
  - Semaphor 5y ago
    That’s not the statement I want a source for, it’s actually a source against what I quoted ;)
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Well, even without a spurce, they did give one very compelling piece of evidence: oil companies support this idea. Given everything we know about them, this is already strong evidence that it will be ineffective at curtailing the oil trade, which means it will be ineffective at affecting CO2.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    A recent video leak shows an oil company lobbiest saying thay they publicly support a carbon tax, because they know it won't pass because they privately tell politicians to not pass it.
    - SCUSKU 5y ago
      Do you have a link to this video? Would be interested in seeing it.
      - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        https://youtu.be/5v1Yg6XejyE https://youtu.be/5v1Yg6XejyE
- mempko 5y ago
  I can list the reasons. 1. Oil companies support carbon taxes because they know they are politically dead in the water. 2. Yellow vest movement shows that if you punish the vast population for problems elite created, you will get mass protests. 3. The tax will be miss priced because it will be set by policy. Likely won't be high enough to stop global warming. While a carbon ration doesn't have these problems since we know what the carbon budget is. Once it's spent it's spent and provides the right incentive. Instead of punishing regular people with a tax, it rewards people who use less carbon by giving them an asset. Since the vast majority of people use very little carbon if you divide up the the carbon budget evenly, you suddenly have a method to lower inequality and provide the right incentives for industry to move to a zero carbon world because when the rations are expired, they won't be able to have a business. Carbon taxes simply have too many flaws and bad incentives and don't address the underlying problem, that we have a limited resource (carbon budget).
nobody9999 5y ago
>What we need is carbon rationing. Everyone gets X amount of carbon and prices of things are both in dollars and carbon rations. The rich, who use most of the carbon will have to buy from the poor who use very little. These rations will become more expensive over time until people don't get anymore. So they will only be able to buy things that are carbon neutral/carbon free. When you talk about "carbon rations," are you referring just to fossil fuels and petroleum-based products? Or are you referring to everything that contains carbon? Given that life here is just brimming with carbon (we are, after all, carbon-based life), does that "carbon ration" include food? Pets? Yeast? I'm not being snarky here, but it's not clear to me what exactly you mean. If you'd expand on that, it would be much appreciated.

by mempko 5y ago

Semaphor 5y ago

> And carbon taxes simply won't work for many reasons That’s a bold statement to leave unsourced.

pharmakom 5y ago
It’s true that oil companies favour carbon taxes because they know they won’t ever get passed but by supporting them they can appear to care. https://www.npr.org/2021/07/01/1012138741/exxon-lobbyist-caught-on-video-talks-about-undermining-bidens-climate-push?t=1633503036921 https://www.npr.org/2021/07/01/1012138741/exxon-lobbyist-cau...
- Semaphor 5y ago
  That’s not the statement I want a source for, it’s actually a source against what I quoted ;)
tsimionescu 5y ago
Well, even without a spurce, they did give one very compelling piece of evidence: oil companies support this idea. Given everything we know about them, this is already strong evidence that it will be ineffective at curtailing the oil trade, which means it will be ineffective at affecting CO2.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  A recent video leak shows an oil company lobbiest saying thay they publicly support a carbon tax, because they know it won't pass because they privately tell politicians to not pass it.
  - SCUSKU 5y ago
    Do you have a link to this video? Would be interested in seeing it.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      https://youtu.be/5v1Yg6XejyE https://youtu.be/5v1Yg6XejyE
mempko 5y ago
I can list the reasons. 1. Oil companies support carbon taxes because they know they are politically dead in the water. 2. Yellow vest movement shows that if you punish the vast population for problems elite created, you will get mass protests. 3. The tax will be miss priced because it will be set by policy. Likely won't be high enough to stop global warming. While a carbon ration doesn't have these problems since we know what the carbon budget is. Once it's spent it's spent and provides the right incentive. Instead of punishing regular people with a tax, it rewards people who use less carbon by giving them an asset. Since the vast majority of people use very little carbon if you divide up the the carbon budget evenly, you suddenly have a method to lower inequality and provide the right incentives for industry to move to a zero carbon world because when the rations are expired, they won't be able to have a business. Carbon taxes simply have too many flaws and bad incentives and don't address the underlying problem, that we have a limited resource (carbon budget).

nobody9999 5y ago

>What we need is carbon rationing. Everyone gets X amount of carbon and prices of things are both in dollars and carbon rations. The rich, who use most of the carbon will have to buy from the poor who use very little. These rations will become more expensive over time until people don't get anymore. So they will only be able to buy things that are carbon neutral/carbon free. When you talk about "carbon rations," are you referring just to fossil fuels and petroleum-based products? Or are you referring to everything that contains carbon? Given that life here is just brimming with carbon (we are, after all, carbon-based life), does that "carbon ration" include food? Pets? Yeast? I'm not being snarky here, but it's not clear to me what exactly you mean. If you'd expand on that, it would be much appreciated.