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I'd be interested to hear the perspective of the people left in your wake. The cost of engaging with a strong-willed "do-er" is what happens when someone, by th

by bsanr2 5y ago

I'd be interested to hear the perspective of the people left in your wake. The cost of engaging with a strong-willed "do-er" is what happens when someone, by the do-er's measure, fails to keep up (or, god forbid, gets in the way). At that point, the do-er's productive ability has to be weighed against their capacity (or track record) for coercion or abuse. Steve Jobs comes to mind. If you've personally received pushback or resentment, it may be less out of misunderstanding of, or a lack of appreciation for, your ability, and more to do with your having been an asshole. But that may just be my own trauma speaking. In any case, I think a zen approach is often undervalued, especially per productivity and creativity. "Do" is, after all, a verb, not a noun; a performance, not a crafted object. It's one thing to be proud of one's manifest accomplishments, but to define oneself as a "do-er"...? One can "do" a great many things, including "damage" and "harm."

lazide 5y ago
I consistently got top ratings from everyone I worked with as a leader and manager, and the issues I mention have been rare - and generally from those I’ve not wanted to be around because I didn’t agree with their approach or didn’t like their ethics. If that answers your question. Some of It is from clearly great pain they have been in, in the past, that had nothing to do with me, but was funneled in my direction when I did not fail like they wanted me to. And I work hard to ensure what is done is the best that can be, and others don’t get hurt. Which, interesting enough, does involve a lot of meditation.
- bsanr2 5y ago
  >If that answers your question. It really doesn't, considering the proposed metric was "perspective of people left in your wake" and not "ratings from colleagues, as related by you." A hypothetical aimed less at considering what people think of you and more of what people think of themselves after having encountered you, it's a matter of who is being centered in such a meditation. You sound like a great self-marketer. What I've learned is that great self-marketers are fun to be around and work with as long as the reality distortion field is up; however, the risk one takes is in someday finding oneself outside the field, which is a life-altering and frequently psyche-shattering experience. The do-er generally does not care, if they even notice at all; convinced of the virtuousness of their ethos, they're too busy "doing." (Though, to be frank, there is some schadenfreude-tinged consolation in that that often includes "doing" themselves into legal or ethical trouble, or a divorce.) I'm sorry if that's harsh. I've seen careers destroyed and dreams deferred by people who speak like you speak. Maybe you're different.
  - lazide 5y ago
    You’re welcome to talk to them if you run across them, somehow. I tend to be overly honest, and pretty much the opposite of self marketing. The only reason I replied here was because I felt it important that folks know where Carmack might be coming from. The only legal trouble I’ve ever been in, the other side filed to settle and dismiss (which I was ok with, despite having a strong claim for civil damages into the 6 figures on them), because once I pulled my records for the court it was clear they had committed at least one crime of felony perjury - hard to prove, but what I had certainly seemed to show they had met the bar - and likely 4-5 other identifiable crimes while doing this including potentially criminal conspiracy - for which evidence would be visible in discovery. Never had a complaint at work filed against me, never even been questioned by the police or detained except for some speeding tickets a decade ago. I have had to file criminal complaints against a few people over the years when they persisted in clearly criminal acts despite being confronted about it. I wish I hadn’t needed to, but I made sure to provide a comprehensive set of evidence to the investigators, and they all were seen through. Also, with projects, I’ve always worked my ass off to make sure we’re persuing solid projects that aren’t pie in the sky BS, and if something isn’t working out, people are able to land well in other teams. I’ve never had to lay people off or fire someone because something blew up, even when it wasn’t my doing. I have been on the receiving end of it happening, which is part of why I care so much to not do that to others I suppose. It has really not been easy to do so, but I put in the work, because it matters to me.
    - bsanr2 5y ago
      Replying defensively was a surefire way to prove that you'd missed the point. I'll give that you truly embody the salesman ethos, at least. Unfortunately, that includes a tendency to try to spin potential negatives into positives. What that means is that anyone aware that you are attempting to "sell" cannot trust your characterization of events. And so, I do not.
      - lazide 5y ago
        You know the beauty of not actually selling? That’s ok if you don’t believe or care or whatever. The only reason I even bother is I guess a version of the whole ‘what if you could go back in time and tell yourself something when you were a kid’. I honestly had no clue of what was even possible, or what it even meant to be congruent with ones values, and it took a lot of pain, mistakes, and learning to figure it out. Enjoy, and I wish you luck with your adventures.
rektide 5y ago
I for one would really like to see more action-bias in the world about me, & less zen / uninvested / amotivated. Computers are fascinating as heck & we have so much to do. Abiding by the non-weird people who don't see this as the most interesting, fascinating, richly-interesting field, playing by their rules, giving them endless comfort space & grace, being zen about it all... it's boring. It's less than I want to see for humankind. I find it hard to figure out how the two sides tolerate each other better. Your own phrasing of "I'd be interested to hear the perspective of the people left in your wake" is how I think the overwhelming amount of people feel & see motivated individuals, is what gets thought about them. I try to be sympathetic & helpful & meet people where they want, but I feel like the "normal" behavior to deal with weird people is to be silently pissy & angry & unhelpful & isolate them, to hold them in contempt of normality for their urges to be a bit extra. I don't see a lot of bidirectional sympathy, a lot of recognition that mismatched motivations are a two way street, are a bidirectional issue. And I see a lot of assumptions that the extra behavior is almost always problematic & troublesome.

by bsanr2 5y ago

lazide 5y ago

I consistently got top ratings from everyone I worked with as a leader and manager, and the issues I mention have been rare - and generally from those I’ve not wanted to be around because I didn’t agree with their approach or didn’t like their ethics. If that answers your question. Some of It is from clearly great pain they have been in, in the past, that had nothing to do with me, but was funneled in my direction when I did not fail like they wanted me to. And I work hard to ensure what is done is the best that can be, and others don’t get hurt. Which, interesting enough, does involve a lot of meditation.

bsanr2 5y ago
>If that answers your question. It really doesn't, considering the proposed metric was "perspective of people left in your wake" and not "ratings from colleagues, as related by you." A hypothetical aimed less at considering what people think of you and more of what people think of themselves after having encountered you, it's a matter of who is being centered in such a meditation. You sound like a great self-marketer. What I've learned is that great self-marketers are fun to be around and work with as long as the reality distortion field is up; however, the risk one takes is in someday finding oneself outside the field, which is a life-altering and frequently psyche-shattering experience. The do-er generally does not care, if they even notice at all; convinced of the virtuousness of their ethos, they're too busy "doing." (Though, to be frank, there is some schadenfreude-tinged consolation in that that often includes "doing" themselves into legal or ethical trouble, or a divorce.) I'm sorry if that's harsh. I've seen careers destroyed and dreams deferred by people who speak like you speak. Maybe you're different.
- lazide 5y ago
  You’re welcome to talk to them if you run across them, somehow. I tend to be overly honest, and pretty much the opposite of self marketing. The only reason I replied here was because I felt it important that folks know where Carmack might be coming from. The only legal trouble I’ve ever been in, the other side filed to settle and dismiss (which I was ok with, despite having a strong claim for civil damages into the 6 figures on them), because once I pulled my records for the court it was clear they had committed at least one crime of felony perjury - hard to prove, but what I had certainly seemed to show they had met the bar - and likely 4-5 other identifiable crimes while doing this including potentially criminal conspiracy - for which evidence would be visible in discovery. Never had a complaint at work filed against me, never even been questioned by the police or detained except for some speeding tickets a decade ago. I have had to file criminal complaints against a few people over the years when they persisted in clearly criminal acts despite being confronted about it. I wish I hadn’t needed to, but I made sure to provide a comprehensive set of evidence to the investigators, and they all were seen through. Also, with projects, I’ve always worked my ass off to make sure we’re persuing solid projects that aren’t pie in the sky BS, and if something isn’t working out, people are able to land well in other teams. I’ve never had to lay people off or fire someone because something blew up, even when it wasn’t my doing. I have been on the receiving end of it happening, which is part of why I care so much to not do that to others I suppose. It has really not been easy to do so, but I put in the work, because it matters to me.
  - bsanr2 5y ago
    Replying defensively was a surefire way to prove that you'd missed the point. I'll give that you truly embody the salesman ethos, at least. Unfortunately, that includes a tendency to try to spin potential negatives into positives. What that means is that anyone aware that you are attempting to "sell" cannot trust your characterization of events. And so, I do not.
    - lazide 5y ago
      You know the beauty of not actually selling? That’s ok if you don’t believe or care or whatever. The only reason I even bother is I guess a version of the whole ‘what if you could go back in time and tell yourself something when you were a kid’. I honestly had no clue of what was even possible, or what it even meant to be congruent with ones values, and it took a lot of pain, mistakes, and learning to figure it out. Enjoy, and I wish you luck with your adventures.

rektide 5y ago

I for one would really like to see more action-bias in the world about me, & less zen / uninvested / amotivated. Computers are fascinating as heck & we have so much to do. Abiding by the non-weird people who don't see this as the most interesting, fascinating, richly-interesting field, playing by their rules, giving them endless comfort space & grace, being zen about it all... it's boring. It's less than I want to see for humankind. I find it hard to figure out how the two sides tolerate each other better. Your own phrasing of "I'd be interested to hear the perspective of the people left in your wake" is how I think the overwhelming amount of people feel & see motivated individuals, is what gets thought about them. I try to be sympathetic & helpful & meet people where they want, but I feel like the "normal" behavior to deal with weird people is to be silently pissy & angry & unhelpful & isolate them, to hold them in contempt of normality for their urges to be a bit extra. I don't see a lot of bidirectional sympathy, a lot of recognition that mismatched motivations are a two way street, are a bidirectional issue. And I see a lot of assumptions that the extra behavior is almost always problematic & troublesome.