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> What disappoints me is a "generation of folks" who can't tell that openness is a spectrum And Apple is very far on the closed end of that spectrum relative t

> What disappoints me is a "generation of folks" who can't tell that openness is a spectrum And Apple is very far on the closed end of that spectrum relative to their competitors, and always has been. There is simply no arguing this point. > every bit of openness they enjoy was hard-fought for by pushing the boundaries of the platforms that existed beyond their original intentions, and now treat an effort to do the same on new platforms as some kind of windmill tilting. Let's be real: Asahi isn't gonna change Apple's corporate culture. It's a super cool technical project and I absolutely applaud these sorts of efforts simply because they're cool. But you're not the Jedi fighting the empire here. You're not gonna blow open the M1 and suddenly change Apple hearts and minds. The PC industry became more open for one reason and one reason only: Money. The IBM monopoly was destroyed because clones were cheap, not because of ragtag freedom fighters. Linux won over in the embedded space because it doesn't cost anything, not because folks suddenly got stars in their eyes over the GPL. Apple will only change their practices when economics force them to. But it's very clear that they view a walled garden of hardware and software as key to their financial success, and everything they're doing is intended to build those walls just a little bit higher. So until you can change that financial equation, nothing in the Apple ecosystem will change. But, honestly, keep plugging away! Have fun! I personally love repurposing hardware to make it do cool things for which it was never intended. When I see projects like this, I think of Everest: We do it because it's there. But let's not pretend that you're somehow going to change Apple just because you get the Linux kernel booting on the M1.

stormbrew 5y ago
Fundamentally, if people with your and the spawner of this thread's attitudes had won the day we wouldn't have any of the things this thread is allegedly about loving so much. That's my main point here. Also I am not involved in or affiliated with or even a likely user of the Asahi project, to be clear. I just find this attitude incredibly frustrating, and I'm definitely bristling at accused of being a young'un or some shit for believing people can actually do surprising things. I am not the dewy-eyed idealist you seem to think I am, I believe what I'm saying here because I've seen it happen over and over and over again.
- CarelessExpert 5y ago
  > I just find this attitude incredibly frustrating What attitude? The attitude that Apple's hardware is closed and Apple should be criticized for building a walled garden? That we should, where possible, invest in open hardware and technology and put our money where our mouths are, so as to create the kinds of economic incentives that ensure that technology remains open in the future? Do you really disagree with that? > I am not the dewy-eyed idealist you seem to think I am, I believe what I'm saying here because I've seen it happen over and over and over again. What "it" are we talking about here? What do you think the end game is going to be? I genuinely have no idea what your argument is, other than to tell me how I'm wrong without providing any specifics regarding how I'm wrong. Please, enlighten me, I'm happy to listen!
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    The attitude that pushing on technology that seems hard isn't worth it. We can do both. We should do both. At any rate, I'd suggest you go read marcan_'s replies and the OP submitted to HN because the picture you paint and the picture they paint of this platform are not quite the same to begin with. I think the people doing the work deserve a little more credit to describe the platform they're working on.
    - CarelessExpert 5y ago
      > We can do both. We should do both. So, other than for the intellectual curiosity (which is absolutely a great reason!), I have a simple question: why? Edit: By the way, thinking about it, I have my own answer to this question: So that this hardware can continue to remain useful long after Apple has ended support for it. Of course, I continue to believe that it's better, now, to simply buy hardware that doesn't need this kind of reverse engineering to ensure longevity, and I steer my hardware purchases accordingly. But the hardware exists, and people are buying it, so this project is a way to keep it alive after Apple eventually abandons it (which, granted, could be a long time; while I have a lot of problems with Apple, they are very good about continuing to support old gear).

stormbrew 5y ago

Fundamentally, if people with your and the spawner of this thread's attitudes had won the day we wouldn't have any of the things this thread is allegedly about loving so much. That's my main point here. Also I am not involved in or affiliated with or even a likely user of the Asahi project, to be clear. I just find this attitude incredibly frustrating, and I'm definitely bristling at accused of being a young'un or some shit for believing people can actually do surprising things. I am not the dewy-eyed idealist you seem to think I am, I believe what I'm saying here because I've seen it happen over and over and over again.

CarelessExpert 5y ago
> I just find this attitude incredibly frustrating What attitude? The attitude that Apple's hardware is closed and Apple should be criticized for building a walled garden? That we should, where possible, invest in open hardware and technology and put our money where our mouths are, so as to create the kinds of economic incentives that ensure that technology remains open in the future? Do you really disagree with that? > I am not the dewy-eyed idealist you seem to think I am, I believe what I'm saying here because I've seen it happen over and over and over again. What "it" are we talking about here? What do you think the end game is going to be? I genuinely have no idea what your argument is, other than to tell me how I'm wrong without providing any specifics regarding how I'm wrong. Please, enlighten me, I'm happy to listen!
- stormbrew 5y ago
  The attitude that pushing on technology that seems hard isn't worth it. We can do both. We should do both. At any rate, I'd suggest you go read marcan_'s replies and the OP submitted to HN because the picture you paint and the picture they paint of this platform are not quite the same to begin with. I think the people doing the work deserve a little more credit to describe the platform they're working on.
  - CarelessExpert 5y ago
    > We can do both. We should do both. So, other than for the intellectual curiosity (which is absolutely a great reason!), I have a simple question: why? Edit: By the way, thinking about it, I have my own answer to this question: So that this hardware can continue to remain useful long after Apple has ended support for it. Of course, I continue to believe that it's better, now, to simply buy hardware that doesn't need this kind of reverse engineering to ensure longevity, and I steer my hardware purchases accordingly. But the hardware exists, and people are buying it, so this project is a way to keep it alive after Apple eventually abandons it (which, granted, could be a long time; while I have a lot of problems with Apple, they are very good about continuing to support old gear).