4 ms·

While this is quite concerning, honestly as someone deep in the .NET ecosystem, Microsoft has made so many (surprisingly) good moves in recent years that I thin

by tailspin2019 5y ago

While this is quite concerning, honestly as someone deep in the .NET ecosystem, Microsoft has made so many (surprisingly) good moves in recent years that I think there’s room for a couple of fuck ups. [1] I see all this as something that can be corrected. Not necessarily a sign of anything too sinister. (Maybe I’m too optimistic). Admittedly I didn’t like the AppGet/WinGet story but there could be a side to that which we don’t hear about. First time I’ve heard about the IdentityServer issue - doesn’t sound great. But MS have gone too far down the path they’re on for me to any longer dismiss their new found “open source” focus with the same level of cynicism that I once had. There is a LOT of really good stuff happening here. It can no longer be brushed off as just surface-level pandering, which was what I used to think in the early days of their move to .NET Core and open source. But that said, I really hope they take the lessons from this and sort out the Foundation. [1] I exclude Windows 11 from this analysis

pjmlp 5y ago
I am quite irritated how they managed the whole C++/CX replacement via C++/WinRT, throwing .NET devs that still have to drop down to C++ back into the VC++ 6.0 / ATL 3.0 days. Then the radio silence with .NET Native is so typical Silverlight/Managed DirectX/XNA.
- LASR 5y ago
  I was at Microsoft when Silverlight & XNA were the only supported platforms on Windows Phone 7. Less than a year after launch, just as some devs started writing windows phone apps, “we” decided to deprecate Silverlight and XNA in favor of WinRT for Windows Phone 8. Devs were just pissed and vowed to never touch Windows Phone after that. Also, all the customers that bought WP7 phones - they couldn’t upgrade to WP8, because “security”. These were the Microsoft fanboys and early adopters. I left Microsoft the following year. But it looks like they haven’t improved very much over the years.
Shadonototra 5y ago
microsoft wasted its time rewriting dotnet to catchup with java nobody moved, instead they had other needs, GO appeared, and people adopted it what's left? people maintaining Java servers; and when it's time to switch tech, it's GO politics is what ruined C#, now they are bloating the language with features nobody asked/needed microsoft have the wrong culture, they are bloat oriented, and they are vendor locking driven it's either ASP.NET or nothing with C#, that says it all and you still CAN'T build a AOT statically compiled single file executable, you have to ship your 300 DLLs with you, even that, they couldn't improve, it's 2021, it's a billion dollar company, and yet, it's still "we are working on it", dude no, it's too late, i'll go with GO for a while they recommended zipping/unzipping at runtime your 300+dll folder as a solution to the "single file problem", so no, you can't come up and say, "we are awesome piece of tech", because that's a pure lie, a billion dollar company and msbuild, while it has improved, it still a joke compared to what other languages are providing, not worse than gradle or maven, but equally shitty https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28655192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28655192 200mb + 300 DLLS for a desktop application, that's the "awesome" dotnet for you, even java don't do that anymore
- simooooo 5y ago
  So you’re saying you like go?
- merb 5y ago
  > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28655192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28655192 200mb + 300 DLLS for a desktop application, that's the "awesome" dotnet for you, even java don't do that anymore btw. thats paint.net which comes WITH the runtime. it's not just a "small" desktop application. now deploy a java desktop application WITH the runtime and look how "big" it is.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Java 9 dropped the runtime, whoever keeps doing it Java 8 style cannot get past old habits. The correct way is to use the java linker and distribute jvm.{so, dll} alongside a trimmed runtime.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  >and you still CAN'T build a AOT statically compiled single file executable, you have to ship your 300 DLLs with you, even that, they couldn't improve, it's 2021, it's a billion dollar company, and yet, it's still "we are working on it", dude no, it's too late, i'll go with GO I published a single file executable just last week, what in the world are you talking about? If there are any native code DLLs you have to include 1 extra line in your .csproj file to get those to be included in the single file, but other than that it works without any issues whatsoever. Literally spits out a .exe and a .pdb file and nothing else.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Which kind of AOT flavour? NGEN, .NET Native, the pseudo extract zip, the pseudo extract zip with mmap execution,..... https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/form-factors.md#native-aot-form-factors https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/fo... Even in .NET 6 it is going to be "almost there, wait a bit more for .NET 7 to cover all use cases". https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-net-6-preview-6/#comment-9721 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-net-6-previ...
basilgohar 5y ago
You will see with time that Microsoft has not really changed. They go through cycles when they're behind, they're nice, when they're ahead, they're jerks. The problem is people keep getting fooled by the "embrace" aspect of their embrace, extend, extinguish tactic, because it seems like, "oh hey, Microsoft's here! They're helping out! This is great!". A lot of times, the folks responsible for welcoming the embrace part of the cycle either move on to actually work at Microsoft or elsewhere, and then the following two steps usually take place after they're gone. Microsoft has also been really good at seeding standards organizations or pushing out sock puppet companies/representatives to advocate for positions that undermine their competitors. There's really no long-term good practices. The short term niceties are all just to get the foot in the door to finish their cycle.

pjmlp 5y ago

I am quite irritated how they managed the whole C++/CX replacement via C++/WinRT, throwing .NET devs that still have to drop down to C++ back into the VC++ 6.0 / ATL 3.0 days. Then the radio silence with .NET Native is so typical Silverlight/Managed DirectX/XNA.

LASR 5y ago
I was at Microsoft when Silverlight & XNA were the only supported platforms on Windows Phone 7. Less than a year after launch, just as some devs started writing windows phone apps, “we” decided to deprecate Silverlight and XNA in favor of WinRT for Windows Phone 8. Devs were just pissed and vowed to never touch Windows Phone after that. Also, all the customers that bought WP7 phones - they couldn’t upgrade to WP8, because “security”. These were the Microsoft fanboys and early adopters. I left Microsoft the following year. But it looks like they haven’t improved very much over the years.

Shadonototra 5y ago

microsoft wasted its time rewriting dotnet to catchup with java nobody moved, instead they had other needs, GO appeared, and people adopted it what's left? people maintaining Java servers; and when it's time to switch tech, it's GO politics is what ruined C#, now they are bloating the language with features nobody asked/needed microsoft have the wrong culture, they are bloat oriented, and they are vendor locking driven it's either ASP.NET or nothing with C#, that says it all and you still CAN'T build a AOT statically compiled single file executable, you have to ship your 300 DLLs with you, even that, they couldn't improve, it's 2021, it's a billion dollar company, and yet, it's still "we are working on it", dude no, it's too late, i'll go with GO for a while they recommended zipping/unzipping at runtime your 300+dll folder as a solution to the "single file problem", so no, you can't come up and say, "we are awesome piece of tech", because that's a pure lie, a billion dollar company and msbuild, while it has improved, it still a joke compared to what other languages are providing, not worse than gradle or maven, but equally shitty https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28655192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28655192 200mb + 300 DLLS for a desktop application, that's the "awesome" dotnet for you, even java don't do that anymore

simooooo 5y ago
So you’re saying you like go?
merb 5y ago
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28655192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28655192 200mb + 300 DLLS for a desktop application, that's the "awesome" dotnet for you, even java don't do that anymore btw. thats paint.net which comes WITH the runtime. it's not just a "small" desktop application. now deploy a java desktop application WITH the runtime and look how "big" it is.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Java 9 dropped the runtime, whoever keeps doing it Java 8 style cannot get past old habits. The correct way is to use the java linker and distribute jvm.{so, dll} alongside a trimmed runtime.
HideousKojima 5y ago
>and you still CAN'T build a AOT statically compiled single file executable, you have to ship your 300 DLLs with you, even that, they couldn't improve, it's 2021, it's a billion dollar company, and yet, it's still "we are working on it", dude no, it's too late, i'll go with GO I published a single file executable just last week, what in the world are you talking about? If there are any native code DLLs you have to include 1 extra line in your .csproj file to get those to be included in the single file, but other than that it works without any issues whatsoever. Literally spits out a .exe and a .pdb file and nothing else.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Which kind of AOT flavour? NGEN, .NET Native, the pseudo extract zip, the pseudo extract zip with mmap execution,..... https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/form-factors.md#native-aot-form-factors https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/fo... Even in .NET 6 it is going to be "almost there, wait a bit more for .NET 7 to cover all use cases". https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-net-6-preview-6/#comment-9721 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-net-6-previ...

basilgohar 5y ago

You will see with time that Microsoft has not really changed. They go through cycles when they're behind, they're nice, when they're ahead, they're jerks. The problem is people keep getting fooled by the "embrace" aspect of their embrace, extend, extinguish tactic, because it seems like, "oh hey, Microsoft's here! They're helping out! This is great!". A lot of times, the folks responsible for welcoming the embrace part of the cycle either move on to actually work at Microsoft or elsewhere, and then the following two steps usually take place after they're gone. Microsoft has also been really good at seeding standards organizations or pushing out sock puppet companies/representatives to advocate for positions that undermine their competitors. There's really no long-term good practices. The short term niceties are all just to get the foot in the door to finish their cycle.