5 ms·

> I want them to ban the business model of stalking people online and selling intimate details of their lives. When you say "selling intimate details of their

by Permit 5y ago

> I want them to ban the business model of stalking people online and selling intimate details of their lives. When you say "selling intimate details of their lives" you are misleading your reader. I don't know if this is intentional on your behalf but it makes it really hard to discuss real problems when you obfuscate them behind quarter truths like "Facebook sells your data".

nonfamous 5y ago
When Facebook’s ad network sells and places ads in front of a person because they are gay, pregnant, devout, or disabled, you don’t consider those to be “intimate details of their lives”?
- tosser0001 5y ago
  That is a mischaracterization of what Facebook is doing. Facebook has a giant ontology of subjects. Based on their "stalking" of you, subjects in this ontology are connected to the user profile; i.e., the FB user's "interests". Ad buyers are buying access to the ontology, not the individual users. They're not given a list of users to sift through and choose the user. They choose the subjects and FB's ad network shows the ad to users with matching interests. For what it's worth there's at least a buffer there. You may still find this wrong, but the idea that they're providing "intimate details of their lives" oversells the argument against FB. BTW: you have to at least give FB credit for giving users access to the interests that are tied to their profiles. I periodically sweep through them so that I show 0 interests and subsequently never get any ads. Ad buyers are looking to target people; if you're not in the target audience you wont be shown an ad.
  - clairity 5y ago
    because facebook meticulously tracks and categorizes us (the ontology), it’s possible to extricate personal data from facebook based simply on the ads you’re served. so fb still leaks data about you (to advertisers, researchers, governments, etc.) even if they don’t literally let people download the personal data. then there’s also the issue that the government can compel arbitrary disclosures secretly and without recourse.
- Permit 5y ago
  > you don’t consider those to be “intimate details of their lives”? I consider all of those to be intimate details of their lives. I cannot purchase that information from Facebook. What makes this more confusing and frustrating is that there are companies that do sell user data to Facebook. Not in the handwave-y, roundabout way people that OP describes, but in the standard "I give you $$$, you give me transaction data" way.
ziddoap 5y ago
Can you explain what you believe the other 3/4 of the truth is? As far as I know, FB makes money by selling political and religious affiliation, location, age, gender, etc. to advertisers in the form of target markets. I consider most of those to be intimate details of my life.
- jonny_eh 5y ago
  That's why it's a 3/4 truth. They don't offer "pay us to see John Doe's religious affiliation", instead they offer "show your ad to Catholics". It's more similar to a Catholic TV station selling commercial slots. That said, it can be far more targeted and powerful than a TV commercial, e.g. "show your ad to 18 year old Catholics with post-secondary education in Flint, Michigan".
  - ziddoap 5y ago
    Thanks for replying and not simply downvoting and moving on. I can see what you (or the parent) was getting at and somewhat agree that it's not a "full" truth, and there is some nuance at play. Although, with just a few of those variables (age/gender/poltiics/religion/geography) you can likely narrow down your target audience to a few tens of people, making those people identifiable. I recall a few years ago a report along these lines (identifying people through FB's extremely granular targeting) in either Ars or a similar publication. Somewhat analogous would be the IMDB de-anonymization paper. And in these cases, the line is a lot more blurred. All that said, I'm not sure if FB has backed off on the available granularity that allowed such narrow target markets. Not to mention, if FB can target the market they obviously know each person in the market -- even when not directly giving that information to marketers, I think it's still part of the conversation.
    - jonny_eh 5y ago
      > you can likely narrow down your target audience to a few tens of people, making those people identifiable Perhaps, but that's a very different scenario that what most people think of when others say "FB profits from selling your info".
sul_tasto 5y ago
It is not misleading to say that facebook is stalking even non-users and collecting intimate details of people’s lives. Facebook is violating people’s privacy rights.
- Permit 5y ago
  Then say that. Let's get away from "Facebook sells user data". These are not equivalent statements.

by Permit 5y ago

nonfamous 5y ago

When Facebook’s ad network sells and places ads in front of a person because they are gay, pregnant, devout, or disabled, you don’t consider those to be “intimate details of their lives”?

tosser0001 5y ago
That is a mischaracterization of what Facebook is doing. Facebook has a giant ontology of subjects. Based on their "stalking" of you, subjects in this ontology are connected to the user profile; i.e., the FB user's "interests". Ad buyers are buying access to the ontology, not the individual users. They're not given a list of users to sift through and choose the user. They choose the subjects and FB's ad network shows the ad to users with matching interests. For what it's worth there's at least a buffer there. You may still find this wrong, but the idea that they're providing "intimate details of their lives" oversells the argument against FB. BTW: you have to at least give FB credit for giving users access to the interests that are tied to their profiles. I periodically sweep through them so that I show 0 interests and subsequently never get any ads. Ad buyers are looking to target people; if you're not in the target audience you wont be shown an ad.
- clairity 5y ago
  because facebook meticulously tracks and categorizes us (the ontology), it’s possible to extricate personal data from facebook based simply on the ads you’re served. so fb still leaks data about you (to advertisers, researchers, governments, etc.) even if they don’t literally let people download the personal data. then there’s also the issue that the government can compel arbitrary disclosures secretly and without recourse.
Permit 5y ago
> you don’t consider those to be “intimate details of their lives”? I consider all of those to be intimate details of their lives. I cannot purchase that information from Facebook. What makes this more confusing and frustrating is that there are companies that do sell user data to Facebook. Not in the handwave-y, roundabout way people that OP describes, but in the standard "I give you $$$, you give me transaction data" way.

ziddoap 5y ago

Can you explain what you believe the other 3/4 of the truth is? As far as I know, FB makes money by selling political and religious affiliation, location, age, gender, etc. to advertisers in the form of target markets. I consider most of those to be intimate details of my life.

jonny_eh 5y ago
That's why it's a 3/4 truth. They don't offer "pay us to see John Doe's religious affiliation", instead they offer "show your ad to Catholics". It's more similar to a Catholic TV station selling commercial slots. That said, it can be far more targeted and powerful than a TV commercial, e.g. "show your ad to 18 year old Catholics with post-secondary education in Flint, Michigan".
- ziddoap 5y ago
  Thanks for replying and not simply downvoting and moving on. I can see what you (or the parent) was getting at and somewhat agree that it's not a "full" truth, and there is some nuance at play. Although, with just a few of those variables (age/gender/poltiics/religion/geography) you can likely narrow down your target audience to a few tens of people, making those people identifiable. I recall a few years ago a report along these lines (identifying people through FB's extremely granular targeting) in either Ars or a similar publication. Somewhat analogous would be the IMDB de-anonymization paper. And in these cases, the line is a lot more blurred. All that said, I'm not sure if FB has backed off on the available granularity that allowed such narrow target markets. Not to mention, if FB can target the market they obviously know each person in the market -- even when not directly giving that information to marketers, I think it's still part of the conversation.
  - jonny_eh 5y ago
    > you can likely narrow down your target audience to a few tens of people, making those people identifiable Perhaps, but that's a very different scenario that what most people think of when others say "FB profits from selling your info".

sul_tasto 5y ago

It is not misleading to say that facebook is stalking even non-users and collecting intimate details of people’s lives. Facebook is violating people’s privacy rights.

Permit 5y ago
Then say that. Let's get away from "Facebook sells user data". These are not equivalent statements.