5 ms·

The comments section looks like a grade 11 class. Not everything is about “controlling” you, not everything is a “fake narrative”, the world isn’t out to censo

by epgui 5y ago

The comments section looks like a grade 11 class. Not everything is about “controlling” you, not everything is a “fake narrative”, the world isn’t out to censor you, and no, not every form of censorship is bad. Yes censorship is a slippery slope, but so is intellectual laziness.

shadowgovt 5y ago
Sometimes, people run so fast from the 1984 future where a big unfettered government decides their fate that they trip and fall right into the Snow Crash future where big unfettered corporations decide their fate. There's no simple answers here.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  I will categorically say that I'll take unfettered corporations over unfettered government every single time. I can quit Facebook. Good luck quitting your government. These are not remotely equivalent things, and I bristle every time I hear someone suggest it.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    I will categorically say the opposite. As long as there are free and fair elections the government is accountable to the people. Corporations are never accountable to anyone but the shareholders.
  - epgui 5y ago
    Government moves slower and works for the commons (at least it is supposed to). Corporations cannot solve every kind of problem, and some form of government is inevitable, necessary and desirable.
  - lapetitejort 5y ago
    I cannot "quit" Equifax, Experian, TransUnion, and Facebook collecting info about me.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    > I can quit Facebook. Maybe. If I quit Facebook, I can't messenger my loved ones anymore and my Oculus is now a lovely brick someone bought me for Christmas. At a certain scale, the power dynamics start to look very similar. Governments still generally maintain a monopoly on violence, that's a big difference. Generally. I think we can consider "Deported because your employer has no further use for you" a mostly-government-but-kind-of-weird-hand-in-glove-with-corporate-power blended category.
    - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
      How did people communicate with their loved ones before Facebook? Are you hearing yourself?
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        > How did people communicate with their loved ones before Facebook? Synchronously, without video, using an interrupting device. And after that, bifurcated across about a half-dozen messaging services. Facebook is the first system I've seen that actually has 100% of my friends and family reachable using a common protocol supporting text, audio, and video messaging. If I were to leave, I'd lose touch with about half the people I correspond with regularly. It's a hard sell.
    - xyzelement 5y ago
      > Maybe. If I quit Facebook, I can't messenger my loved ones anymore and my Oculus is now a lovely brick someone bought me for Christmas ... At a certain scale, the power dynamics start to look very similar. Governments still generally maintain a monopoly on violence, that's a big difference. That's a HUGE difference. You are describing inconveniences but you still have a choice to give up your Oculus etc if you want. You don't have the choice to "ignore" the government the same way.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    >I can quit Facebook. I hope you keep in mind that this puts you into a somewhat privileged position given that numerous people need to maintain accounts with Facebook for their job, their educational institutions, their landlord, or something else they cannot avoid. In quite a lot of countries on earth Facebook services (or their national analogues) are essentially equivalent to 'the internet'.
scop 5y ago
There is a categorical difference between "the vaccine has microchips in it" and "we have seen a coalescing of forces behind Big Tech, the Press, and Government over the last several years that is rightly frightening". If you cannot recognize that difference, then may I politely suggest that you ponder the idea of "intellectual laziness".
- epgui 5y ago
  Yes these are big forces, but they’re all pushing in different directions. Either way this is a bit of a straw man.
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    >Yes these are big forces, but they’re all pushing in different directions Are they though? All 3 of these groups have been pushing for only their narrative to be heard. Any other voice is misinformation at best and disinformation at worst.
    - epgui 5y ago
      If you feel this way, have you ever considered that you may be a victim of or participating in the dissemination of misinformation or disinformation?
      - scop 5y ago
        Which of the following represents disinformation: (a) the Hunter Biden laptop is likely a Russian ploy (b) the Hunter Biden laptop was verified independently by journalists and colleagues Which of the following represents misinformation: (a) it is very curious that a global pandemic originated in the same location as a biosafety level 4 lab (b) it was impossible that the virus originated from a lab and in fact it is xenophobic and racist to imply the virus originated in a lab In both stories, Big Tech + Government + The Press all took swift and unified action towards the "approved" narrative.
        5y ago
hunterb123 5y ago
[flagged]
- epgui 5y ago
  Have you ever considered the possibility that people just don’t think what you’re saying makes sense?
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    If it "didn't make sense" they wouldn't have to ban it. They ban simple questions when people are looking for answers. They banned the Hunter laptop story even when the emails were DKIM verified and his business partner came out against him. Look who they protect through these bans. They protect Biden, China, the establishment party. Do they ever try to protect YOU? No.
    - epgui 5y ago
      The premise that good ideas that make sense end up winning is unfortunately false. Many bad ideas tend to have a remarkably long half-life, and generally they can exhibit much greater virality at the network level.
      - hunterb123 5y ago
        You fight misinformation with more information, not censorship. Unless you're saying other people are so stupid we need to control their content so they can make the right choices? At that moment, let's just keep everyone in a jail cell so they don't hurt themselves. Who is the arbiter of truth? The government? You?
        epgui 5y ago
        > You fight misinformation with more information, not censorship. This is a flawed model. At some point, there is so much information that nobody can conceivably consume it all. A better mental model for this dynamic is that of pollution: can you fight pollution by making more "stuff", or at some point does it make sense to try and clean out the junk? > Unless you're saying other people are so stupid we need to control their content so they can make the right choices? Yes, to some degree. I think we need to be cautious here, and I acknowledge that there are a lot of examples of how this can go wrong. But yes, yes indeed. If people were smarter, propaganda would not work. Alas propaganda works, and it works frighteningly well. There are also plenty of examples of this in both the modern world and in History. > At that moment, let's just keep everyone in a jail cell so they don't hurt themselves. Now you're being a little hysterical. > Who is the arbiter of truth? The government? You? This might shock you, but no, and we don't need an "arbiter". Getting to the "truth" is to a large extent a decentralized process that should involve many people and communities. I would suggest that a good place to start is with the scientific consensus. For everything else, it certainly becomes a lot more complicated.
president 5y ago
Let people have their opinion. People said the same thing about Covid mandates and passports and look where we are. Comments like yours that attempt to ride the contrarian high horse are worse than failed predictions.
- epgui 5y ago
  I will take that under advisement, but will nonetheless exercise my right to an opinion.
  - president 5y ago
    Last piece of advice, step out of your bubble and try to understand why people hold viewpoints that aren't your own instead of trashing them right out the gate. Ironic that you're accusing others of "intellectual laziness" when you go straight to calling people's arguments "11th grade class" behavior and can't even go the length to make a proper counter-argument.
    - epgui 5y ago
      I remark that you have little way of knowing how familiar I am with these viewpoints you are referring to, or what my bubble consists of or what size it is. This criticism (or advice) is easy to dish out.
ogaitnas 5y ago
Yea there is a ton of Facebook cheerleaders and apologists coming out of the woodwork today.
tyrfing 5y ago
It's not a stretch to see censorship laws coming out of this, this may be the tipping point for the majority of the US supporting them. [1] The main limit is what can survive the Supreme Court, and that's not clear without very in-depth legal knowledge. 1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/18/more-americans-now-say-government-should-take-steps-to-restrict-false-information-online-than-in-2018/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/18/more-americ...
fidesomnes 5y ago
You served yourself, well done. This whole narrative is fake and the talking head leading it is full of shit.

by epgui 5y ago

shadowgovt 5y ago

Sometimes, people run so fast from the 1984 future where a big unfettered government decides their fate that they trip and fall right into the Snow Crash future where big unfettered corporations decide their fate. There's no simple answers here.

stickfigure 5y ago
I will categorically say that I'll take unfettered corporations over unfettered government every single time. I can quit Facebook. Good luck quitting your government. These are not remotely equivalent things, and I bristle every time I hear someone suggest it.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  I will categorically say the opposite. As long as there are free and fair elections the government is accountable to the people. Corporations are never accountable to anyone but the shareholders.
- epgui 5y ago
  Government moves slower and works for the commons (at least it is supposed to). Corporations cannot solve every kind of problem, and some form of government is inevitable, necessary and desirable.
- lapetitejort 5y ago
  I cannot "quit" Equifax, Experian, TransUnion, and Facebook collecting info about me.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  > I can quit Facebook. Maybe. If I quit Facebook, I can't messenger my loved ones anymore and my Oculus is now a lovely brick someone bought me for Christmas. At a certain scale, the power dynamics start to look very similar. Governments still generally maintain a monopoly on violence, that's a big difference. Generally. I think we can consider "Deported because your employer has no further use for you" a mostly-government-but-kind-of-weird-hand-in-glove-with-corporate-power blended category.
  - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
    How did people communicate with their loved ones before Facebook? Are you hearing yourself?
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      > How did people communicate with their loved ones before Facebook? Synchronously, without video, using an interrupting device. And after that, bifurcated across about a half-dozen messaging services. Facebook is the first system I've seen that actually has 100% of my friends and family reachable using a common protocol supporting text, audio, and video messaging. If I were to leave, I'd lose touch with about half the people I correspond with regularly. It's a hard sell.
  - xyzelement 5y ago
    > Maybe. If I quit Facebook, I can't messenger my loved ones anymore and my Oculus is now a lovely brick someone bought me for Christmas ... At a certain scale, the power dynamics start to look very similar. Governments still generally maintain a monopoly on violence, that's a big difference. That's a HUGE difference. You are describing inconveniences but you still have a choice to give up your Oculus etc if you want. You don't have the choice to "ignore" the government the same way.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >I can quit Facebook. I hope you keep in mind that this puts you into a somewhat privileged position given that numerous people need to maintain accounts with Facebook for their job, their educational institutions, their landlord, or something else they cannot avoid. In quite a lot of countries on earth Facebook services (or their national analogues) are essentially equivalent to 'the internet'.

scop 5y ago

There is a categorical difference between "the vaccine has microchips in it" and "we have seen a coalescing of forces behind Big Tech, the Press, and Government over the last several years that is rightly frightening". If you cannot recognize that difference, then may I politely suggest that you ponder the idea of "intellectual laziness".

epgui 5y ago
Yes these are big forces, but they’re all pushing in different directions. Either way this is a bit of a straw man.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  >Yes these are big forces, but they’re all pushing in different directions Are they though? All 3 of these groups have been pushing for only their narrative to be heard. Any other voice is misinformation at best and disinformation at worst.
  - epgui 5y ago
    If you feel this way, have you ever considered that you may be a victim of or participating in the dissemination of misinformation or disinformation?
    - scop 5y ago
      Which of the following represents disinformation: (a) the Hunter Biden laptop is likely a Russian ploy (b) the Hunter Biden laptop was verified independently by journalists and colleagues Which of the following represents misinformation: (a) it is very curious that a global pandemic originated in the same location as a biosafety level 4 lab (b) it was impossible that the virus originated from a lab and in fact it is xenophobic and racist to imply the virus originated in a lab In both stories, Big Tech + Government + The Press all took swift and unified action towards the "approved" narrative.
      - 5y ago

hunterb123 5y ago

[flagged]

epgui 5y ago
Have you ever considered the possibility that people just don’t think what you’re saying makes sense?
- hunterb123 5y ago
  If it "didn't make sense" they wouldn't have to ban it. They ban simple questions when people are looking for answers. They banned the Hunter laptop story even when the emails were DKIM verified and his business partner came out against him. Look who they protect through these bans. They protect Biden, China, the establishment party. Do they ever try to protect YOU? No.
  - epgui 5y ago
    The premise that good ideas that make sense end up winning is unfortunately false. Many bad ideas tend to have a remarkably long half-life, and generally they can exhibit much greater virality at the network level.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      You fight misinformation with more information, not censorship. Unless you're saying other people are so stupid we need to control their content so they can make the right choices? At that moment, let's just keep everyone in a jail cell so they don't hurt themselves. Who is the arbiter of truth? The government? You?
      - epgui 5y ago
        > You fight misinformation with more information, not censorship. This is a flawed model. At some point, there is so much information that nobody can conceivably consume it all. A better mental model for this dynamic is that of pollution: can you fight pollution by making more "stuff", or at some point does it make sense to try and clean out the junk? > Unless you're saying other people are so stupid we need to control their content so they can make the right choices? Yes, to some degree. I think we need to be cautious here, and I acknowledge that there are a lot of examples of how this can go wrong. But yes, yes indeed. If people were smarter, propaganda would not work. Alas propaganda works, and it works frighteningly well. There are also plenty of examples of this in both the modern world and in History. > At that moment, let's just keep everyone in a jail cell so they don't hurt themselves. Now you're being a little hysterical. > Who is the arbiter of truth? The government? You? This might shock you, but no, and we don't need an "arbiter". Getting to the "truth" is to a large extent a decentralized process that should involve many people and communities. I would suggest that a good place to start is with the scientific consensus. For everything else, it certainly becomes a lot more complicated.

president 5y ago

Let people have their opinion. People said the same thing about Covid mandates and passports and look where we are. Comments like yours that attempt to ride the contrarian high horse are worse than failed predictions.

epgui 5y ago
I will take that under advisement, but will nonetheless exercise my right to an opinion.
- president 5y ago
  Last piece of advice, step out of your bubble and try to understand why people hold viewpoints that aren't your own instead of trashing them right out the gate. Ironic that you're accusing others of "intellectual laziness" when you go straight to calling people's arguments "11th grade class" behavior and can't even go the length to make a proper counter-argument.
  - epgui 5y ago
    I remark that you have little way of knowing how familiar I am with these viewpoints you are referring to, or what my bubble consists of or what size it is. This criticism (or advice) is easy to dish out.

ogaitnas 5y ago

Yea there is a ton of Facebook cheerleaders and apologists coming out of the woodwork today.

tyrfing 5y ago

It's not a stretch to see censorship laws coming out of this, this may be the tipping point for the majority of the US supporting them. [1] The main limit is what can survive the Supreme Court, and that's not clear without very in-depth legal knowledge. 1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/18/more-americans-now-say-government-should-take-steps-to-restrict-false-information-online-than-in-2018/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/18/more-americ...

fidesomnes 5y ago

You served yourself, well done. This whole narrative is fake and the talking head leading it is full of shit.