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> In my case, I was finally laid off, after a 27-year run at one of the world's marquee imaging companies (which I think was overbalanced by experience). I star

> In my case, I was finally laid off, after a 27-year run at one of the world's marquee imaging companies (which I think was overbalanced by experience). I started looking around for more work, as I wasn't really up for retirement (which I was quite capable of doing). Are you "out of practice" in the job search? This comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28758320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28758320) states: > Delete the first 10 years of your work history and take the date off your CS degree > I started getting significantly more responses to applications and inquiries from recruiters on LinkedIn

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I understand that. I also have gotten advice to dye my hair. I will do neither. That's dishonest. If no one values me for the skills and experience I have, then I have no interest in working with them (not "for," "with." -A big problem, in today's working world, is the attitude that companies are doing people a favor by hiring them. If someone hires me, they don't get me as a servant. I've worked way too long and hard to be treated that way. Another problem, is that asking for simple, basic, human respect, is considered "arrogant"). I am very, very honest. This was actually a big plus, at my last company. It got me a seat at the "inner table" of a highly conservative Japanese corporation; something few Westerners ever experience. I refuse to be dishonest. I won't hide my age, experience, or weaknesses. I also won't exaggerate. People often tell me that I'm exaggerating. Then, they take the time to look at my track record (which is very available -people like to lob insults before actually checking to see if they apply). Things get quiet, after that.
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  Do you think dying your hair is dishonest? I wear shoes with a bit of a lift because generally, at least in the west, taller men are treated a bit better in the workplace. Sure it's unfair, but it's certainly not going to change in my lifetime, so I happily play the game. I don't see dying your hair as any different from wearing makeup or attractive clothes. Humans are social and visual creatures, we find it easier to trust other humans we like the appearance of.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    To me, it is dishonest; if the reason is to convince potential employers that I'm younger than I actually am. I have my own standards of Personal Integrity. I won't project these standards onto others, but I feel that I need to adhere to them. I'm also not particularly tall (5'6" -1.9m). I wear dorky shoes (at least, according to the fashionistas on HackerNews[0]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28579724 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28579724
    - h2odragon 5y ago
      > I have my own standards of Personal Integrity. I won't project these standards onto others, but I feel that I need to adhere to them. I have to say that is quite well phrased. I think that's a problem for those hiring; in itself. I see it when I ask people why they won't hire the Amish or Mennonite crew for some job they'd do well. It's not about the cost, there's no doubt the result will be better; it's not schedule... It's just "these people are odd" and don't have the proper attitude.
  - lanstin 5y ago
    Dieing your hair in response to ageism is like running the coal-powered AC in response to global warming. It might be necessary in limited cases but in general is feedback that makes the problem worse.
- gwbas1c 5y ago
  Perhaps you're misinterpreting me? > If no one values me for the skills and experience I have, then I have no interest in working with them I generally take the same attitude. You don't have to list everything on your resume. It's not dishonest to leave out experience that's no longer relevant. You also don't have to dye your hair, wear platform shoes, or get plastic surgery. (Although Converse was trying to push platform chucks when I ordered some new sneakers a few weeks ago.) All your resume needs to do is make you appealing enough to get a callback. It doesn't have to list out every single detail. But, I do need to point something out 20 years into my career: A lot of development shops don't know how to work with mature developers, nor are they budgeting to hire someone with 30+ years experience. The "people" challenge of onboarding into a team where I have more experience than my manager is often harder than the actual work.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    > A lot of development shops don't know how to work with mature developers, nor are they budgeting to hire someone with 30+ years experience. The "people" challenge of onboarding into a team where I have more experience than my manager is often harder than the actual work. Well, none of my attempts made it past the second screener, so I wouldn't know. As far as "budgeting" goes...I was once told (by a recruiter), that I'd need to "ask for less," because I'm older. I was already asking for peanuts, because I am not really interested in money, and was actually looking for the kind of place I could make a difference; where they often can't afford a lot of "top-shelf" talent. That's a trick I've always used in my career. I have worked for less, at places that interest me. It's still allowed me to get to a point where I don't need to work (I live frugally, avoid personal debt, and save like crazy). I'm used to "making a difference." That may seem arrogant; but you haven't worked with me. I'm making quite a difference, right now. In fact, in the window behind this browser, I see that my latest TestFlight upload is done, and I'm about to make the team quite happy.
- nickd2001 5y ago
  "I also have gotten advice to dye my hair." - sorry if this is a little off-topic, but, it strikes me how lucky us blokes are. That's about the most "appearance advice" we'll get in the workplace, while women feel pressurised to wear make-up at work, select their clothes super carefully etc. Maybe experiencing ageism might have a silver lining if it helps men empathise more with the kind of nonsense women go through daily in the workplace...
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    Absolutely. I also have some "scrappy" educational creds. That gets me a lot of condescension, as well. I'm still a bloke, though, so I can't say I know how they feel.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

I understand that. I also have gotten advice to dye my hair. I will do neither. That's dishonest. If no one values me for the skills and experience I have, then I have no interest in working with them (not "for," "with." -A big problem, in today's working world, is the attitude that companies are doing people a favor by hiring them. If someone hires me, they don't get me as a servant. I've worked way too long and hard to be treated that way. Another problem, is that asking for simple, basic, human respect, is considered "arrogant"). I am very, very honest. This was actually a big plus, at my last company. It got me a seat at the "inner table" of a highly conservative Japanese corporation; something few Westerners ever experience. I refuse to be dishonest. I won't hide my age, experience, or weaknesses. I also won't exaggerate. People often tell me that I'm exaggerating. Then, they take the time to look at my track record (which is very available -people like to lob insults before actually checking to see if they apply). Things get quiet, after that.

honkdaddy 5y ago
Do you think dying your hair is dishonest? I wear shoes with a bit of a lift because generally, at least in the west, taller men are treated a bit better in the workplace. Sure it's unfair, but it's certainly not going to change in my lifetime, so I happily play the game. I don't see dying your hair as any different from wearing makeup or attractive clothes. Humans are social and visual creatures, we find it easier to trust other humans we like the appearance of.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  To me, it is dishonest; if the reason is to convince potential employers that I'm younger than I actually am. I have my own standards of Personal Integrity. I won't project these standards onto others, but I feel that I need to adhere to them. I'm also not particularly tall (5'6" -1.9m). I wear dorky shoes (at least, according to the fashionistas on HackerNews[0]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28579724 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28579724
  - h2odragon 5y ago
    > I have my own standards of Personal Integrity. I won't project these standards onto others, but I feel that I need to adhere to them. I have to say that is quite well phrased. I think that's a problem for those hiring; in itself. I see it when I ask people why they won't hire the Amish or Mennonite crew for some job they'd do well. It's not about the cost, there's no doubt the result will be better; it's not schedule... It's just "these people are odd" and don't have the proper attitude.
- lanstin 5y ago
  Dieing your hair in response to ageism is like running the coal-powered AC in response to global warming. It might be necessary in limited cases but in general is feedback that makes the problem worse.
gwbas1c 5y ago
Perhaps you're misinterpreting me? > If no one values me for the skills and experience I have, then I have no interest in working with them I generally take the same attitude. You don't have to list everything on your resume. It's not dishonest to leave out experience that's no longer relevant. You also don't have to dye your hair, wear platform shoes, or get plastic surgery. (Although Converse was trying to push platform chucks when I ordered some new sneakers a few weeks ago.) All your resume needs to do is make you appealing enough to get a callback. It doesn't have to list out every single detail. But, I do need to point something out 20 years into my career: A lot of development shops don't know how to work with mature developers, nor are they budgeting to hire someone with 30+ years experience. The "people" challenge of onboarding into a team where I have more experience than my manager is often harder than the actual work.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  > A lot of development shops don't know how to work with mature developers, nor are they budgeting to hire someone with 30+ years experience. The "people" challenge of onboarding into a team where I have more experience than my manager is often harder than the actual work. Well, none of my attempts made it past the second screener, so I wouldn't know. As far as "budgeting" goes...I was once told (by a recruiter), that I'd need to "ask for less," because I'm older. I was already asking for peanuts, because I am not really interested in money, and was actually looking for the kind of place I could make a difference; where they often can't afford a lot of "top-shelf" talent. That's a trick I've always used in my career. I have worked for less, at places that interest me. It's still allowed me to get to a point where I don't need to work (I live frugally, avoid personal debt, and save like crazy). I'm used to "making a difference." That may seem arrogant; but you haven't worked with me. I'm making quite a difference, right now. In fact, in the window behind this browser, I see that my latest TestFlight upload is done, and I'm about to make the team quite happy.
nickd2001 5y ago
"I also have gotten advice to dye my hair." - sorry if this is a little off-topic, but, it strikes me how lucky us blokes are. That's about the most "appearance advice" we'll get in the workplace, while women feel pressurised to wear make-up at work, select their clothes super carefully etc. Maybe experiencing ageism might have a silver lining if it helps men empathise more with the kind of nonsense women go through daily in the workplace...
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  Absolutely. I also have some "scrappy" educational creds. That gets me a lot of condescension, as well. I'm still a bloke, though, so I can't say I know how they feel.