5 ms·

Hm - so you're telling me that taking thousands of men, forbidding them from having sex, having them share their lives with young boys in secluded locations, an

Hm - so you're telling me that taking thousands of men, forbidding them from having sex, having them share their lives with young boys in secluded locations, and creating a protective organization around them with its own legal system lead to widespread sexual abuse? Crazy...

ashtonkem 5y ago
You’re not wrong, but there is some evidence that child abuse is common among Protestant churches too, and those are structured quite differently. https://stopabusecampaign.org/2018/01/08/is-there-more-sexual-abuse-in-the-protestant-churches-than-the-catholic-church/ https://stopabusecampaign.org/2018/01/08/is-there-more-sexua... It’s also worth pointing out that child abuse happens in a lot of non-religious settings too. The Catholic Church has a problem, but in no way should we understand child sexual abuse as a uniquely catholic issue.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  Are we counting humiliation, gaslighting and brainwashing as child abuse? Asking because those are really common in religious families and often seen as normal ways of teaching a child.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    I would also consider that a problem, but a distinct one from the discussion of child sexual abuse.
- wolframhempel 5y ago
  > It’s also worth pointing out that child abuse happens in a lot of non-religious settings too. The Catholic Church has a problem, but in no way should we understand child sexual abuse as a uniquely catholic issue. ...that's of course fair - but the Catholic church is to my knowledge the only one that does it on such a systemic level and gathered so much experience over time in controlling information flows, silencing victims and protecting the abusers.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Consider that your knowledge can be simply media bias.
    - wolframhempel 5y ago
      Would you have a counter example of a contemporary institution that facilitated mass abuse on a bigger scale?
      - Apocryphon 5y ago
        Sort of a cheat since the Church of LDS is probably the most centralized non-Catholic church. https://abcnews.go.com/US/families-speak-church-jesus-christ-day-saints-sex/story?id=63690802 https://abcnews.go.com/US/families-speak-church-jesus-christ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases
      - angelzen 5y ago
        School system and foster care system. Unfortunately this is very charged territory. Too many people are trying to push some angle. Finding credible data is difficult. One thing is clear: the US Catholic Church has made significant reforms that are driving out the bulk of the abuse, specifically taking allegations of child abuse very seriously. Here are a couple of links for further research. I am not an expert, I have not vouched them for credible data. Then again, the OP strategy of "cumulative over 70 years" is clearly a tactic to inflate the numbers for clicks. Make what you will of them. I will avoid entering a flamewar on which institution is the worst offender, given the shaky ground of the data and the shifting definitions of "sexual abuse". For example nonphysical sexual abuse (aka poor taste jokes) does not register at the same level as physical sexual abuse, and in the physical realm there is a difference between a tap on the bottom and physical intercourse. Etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education... > A major 2004 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education found that nearly 10 percent of U.S. public school students reported having been targeted with sexual attention by school employees. Indeed, one critic has claimed that sexual harassment and abuse by teachers is 100 times more frequent than abuse by priests.[12] > One survey that was conducted with psychology students reports that 10% had sexual interactions with their educators; in turn, 13% of educators reported sexual interaction with their students https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/201003/six-myths-about-clergy-sexual-abuse-in-the-catholic-church https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/2... > According to the best available data (which is pretty good, coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004, as well as several other studies), 4 percent of Catholic priests in the U.S. sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published at this time which states this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4 percent figure appears lower than school teachers during the same time frame, and certainly less than offenders in the general population of men.
- Mistletoe 5y ago
  My understanding is that forbidding priests to marry stems from a desire to maintain the wealth of the church (if you have no children, church property can’t be inherited) so this seems like greed begetting even more bad things. https://latinamericanpost.com/23291-celibacy-and-greediness-this-is-why-catholic-priests-have-no-children https://latinamericanpost.com/23291-celibacy-and-greediness-... If only there was a bible quote that pertains to this… “For the love of money is the root of all of evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > My understanding is that forbidding priests to marry stems from a desire to maintain the wealth of the church As I understand it, the discipline in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church forbidding priests to marry was a response to a epidemic of scandal in the medieval church of priests neglecting or misadministering their clerical duties for courtship and family issues. Church property isn't personal property and can't be inherited even if you have children.
    - dllthomas 5y ago
      My extremely limited understanding matches what you say as to the history, but in support of the previous comment while a priest's family cannot inherit from the church, the church can inherit from the priest.
  - baud147258 5y ago
    > My understanding is that forbidding priests to marry stems from a desire to maintain the wealth of the church (if you have no children, church property can’t be inherited) so this seems like greed begetting even more bad things. From discussion with catholic priests, the argument they've advanced is that celibacy allows the priests to focus on their clerical duties without distractions from family duties.
  - gottebp 5y ago
    This is a secondary cause, that while true came much later. The earliest cause is 1 Corinthians 7 where St. Paul indicates that the unmarried state is superior. That is why many of the Apostles, who started out married, embraced unmarried life after the passing of their wives. Matthew 19:12 is also relevant, as I do not want to imply this idea rests solely on the Apostle St. Paul.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Like you said, this is not a uniquely Christian Church problem. Likely we are looking this from the wrong angle: it's not the institution that is the primary issue, it's the population of would be abusers that are seeking roles that give them access to children. Given the level of motivated reasoning in this space and the quickly shifting definitions, it is unfortunately very difficult to have a conversation over specifics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education...
  - candiodari 5y ago
    In other Western European nations it has become clear that one thing schools, but especially boarding schools, fostering situations and institutions (youth care and mental health) do is provide people with access to easy-to-abuse people. This applies to kids, and vulnerable adults. Even in blended families, which are of course a fact of life if we want to have easy divorces, it happens, though not nearly as much. There are 2 groups of people who abuse this. First there's a number of people who take such jobs planning to abuse kids from the very beginning. These people exist across the spectrum: physical abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse and psychological abuse cases. There are theoretical measures in place to prevent this (essentially demanding criminal history), that, to put it bluntly, don't work. You should include people who have no choice and take a job in, say, child protection. Such people are incredibly destructive because of the number of kids they damage while filling in subsidy forms how they are helping them. The catch is that it doesn't provide them with much financial benefits, so people like to exclude this situation. But the reality is that the same people insisting on fairness when having a $20000 competition, tear others apart for a 20$ reward. Likewise there's people taking a child protection job because of how much power it gives you over others, for example. There are incredibly bad examples of this. They may tell themselves they're in it to "help kids". Help them get something they lacked as a child, for example. So they throw kids into the foster care system because they have to go to school on foot in the rain, which, to put it very mildly, does not improve the lives of these children. The second group is people who have no idea they are abusers. They suddenly discover a lack of self-control once they are put into a situation where abuse is very easy, and these people suddenly find they cannot resist when presented with the opportunity. I think this is partly because people present an entirely evil view of abusers, when in fact abuse usually comes from 2 sides: sex for drugs arrangements for example, where both sides are guilty of inducing the other side to criminal acts. One is much worse than the other, and this should, of course, be reflected in punishments, but people don't expect "victims" in institutions to be looking for such arrangements. People don't expect to suddenly have both sympathy for abuse situations, see the "advantage" it provides both sides, for victims, and especially don't expect what they saw as pure innocent "victims" to not be nearly as pure. All this then happens in a VERY short timeframe, and of course this happens in jobs that are already very stressful, and often happens while the abuser is under pressure, which the victim may be trying to increase. But then there's the problem with punishing such offenders. In reality the government is partly responsible for most/all child abuse. Why? They employ the offenders, and often the kid's choice was very limited, both when getting assigned to this offender (which was done by some government system and not the kid's choice) and, often, when the kid is trying to get away from the offender ("don't tell anyone or I'll refer you to closed youth care"), this was hindered or even made impossible by government-imposed systems. Even when it does come to light, institutions often choose to "protect their reputations".
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > but there is some evidence that child abuse is common among Protestant churches too And scouting and similar organizations. The Catholic Church is a big focus for a number of reasons. Aside from anti-Catholic animus, the fact that its a uniquely large international heirarchical organization rather than a loose federation of organizationally independent national churches, dioceses, or independent local churches like the Protestant churches is a big reason. EDIT: That is both a direct reason for the focus of attention, and also an indirect reason (because the greater number of lawsuits is a reason for the focus, but that is because the structure of the Church makes it a better lawsuit target—a bigger potential bag of money—even when the facts are similar than many other organizations.)
- methodiosmel 5y ago
  And in public schools...
atatatat 5y ago
Wait til you hear where the reports to nonprofits fighting child trafficking go!
- duckah 5y ago
  Niggers do it the most.

ashtonkem 5y ago

You’re not wrong, but there is some evidence that child abuse is common among Protestant churches too, and those are structured quite differently. https://stopabusecampaign.org/2018/01/08/is-there-more-sexual-abuse-in-the-protestant-churches-than-the-catholic-church/ https://stopabusecampaign.org/2018/01/08/is-there-more-sexua... It’s also worth pointing out that child abuse happens in a lot of non-religious settings too. The Catholic Church has a problem, but in no way should we understand child sexual abuse as a uniquely catholic issue.

eurasiantiger 5y ago
Are we counting humiliation, gaslighting and brainwashing as child abuse? Asking because those are really common in religious families and often seen as normal ways of teaching a child.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  I would also consider that a problem, but a distinct one from the discussion of child sexual abuse.
wolframhempel 5y ago
> It’s also worth pointing out that child abuse happens in a lot of non-religious settings too. The Catholic Church has a problem, but in no way should we understand child sexual abuse as a uniquely catholic issue. ...that's of course fair - but the Catholic church is to my knowledge the only one that does it on such a systemic level and gathered so much experience over time in controlling information flows, silencing victims and protecting the abusers.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Consider that your knowledge can be simply media bias.
  - wolframhempel 5y ago
    Would you have a counter example of a contemporary institution that facilitated mass abuse on a bigger scale?
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      Sort of a cheat since the Church of LDS is probably the most centralized non-Catholic church. https://abcnews.go.com/US/families-speak-church-jesus-christ-day-saints-sex/story?id=63690802 https://abcnews.go.com/US/families-speak-church-jesus-christ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases
    - angelzen 5y ago
      School system and foster care system. Unfortunately this is very charged territory. Too many people are trying to push some angle. Finding credible data is difficult. One thing is clear: the US Catholic Church has made significant reforms that are driving out the bulk of the abuse, specifically taking allegations of child abuse very seriously. Here are a couple of links for further research. I am not an expert, I have not vouched them for credible data. Then again, the OP strategy of "cumulative over 70 years" is clearly a tactic to inflate the numbers for clicks. Make what you will of them. I will avoid entering a flamewar on which institution is the worst offender, given the shaky ground of the data and the shifting definitions of "sexual abuse". For example nonphysical sexual abuse (aka poor taste jokes) does not register at the same level as physical sexual abuse, and in the physical realm there is a difference between a tap on the bottom and physical intercourse. Etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education... > A major 2004 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education found that nearly 10 percent of U.S. public school students reported having been targeted with sexual attention by school employees. Indeed, one critic has claimed that sexual harassment and abuse by teachers is 100 times more frequent than abuse by priests.[12] > One survey that was conducted with psychology students reports that 10% had sexual interactions with their educators; in turn, 13% of educators reported sexual interaction with their students https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/201003/six-myths-about-clergy-sexual-abuse-in-the-catholic-church https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/2... > According to the best available data (which is pretty good, coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004, as well as several other studies), 4 percent of Catholic priests in the U.S. sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published at this time which states this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4 percent figure appears lower than school teachers during the same time frame, and certainly less than offenders in the general population of men.
Mistletoe 5y ago
My understanding is that forbidding priests to marry stems from a desire to maintain the wealth of the church (if you have no children, church property can’t be inherited) so this seems like greed begetting even more bad things. https://latinamericanpost.com/23291-celibacy-and-greediness-this-is-why-catholic-priests-have-no-children https://latinamericanpost.com/23291-celibacy-and-greediness-... If only there was a bible quote that pertains to this… “For the love of money is the root of all of evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > My understanding is that forbidding priests to marry stems from a desire to maintain the wealth of the church As I understand it, the discipline in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church forbidding priests to marry was a response to a epidemic of scandal in the medieval church of priests neglecting or misadministering their clerical duties for courtship and family issues. Church property isn't personal property and can't be inherited even if you have children.
  - dllthomas 5y ago
    My extremely limited understanding matches what you say as to the history, but in support of the previous comment while a priest's family cannot inherit from the church, the church can inherit from the priest.
- baud147258 5y ago
  > My understanding is that forbidding priests to marry stems from a desire to maintain the wealth of the church (if you have no children, church property can’t be inherited) so this seems like greed begetting even more bad things. From discussion with catholic priests, the argument they've advanced is that celibacy allows the priests to focus on their clerical duties without distractions from family duties.
- gottebp 5y ago
  This is a secondary cause, that while true came much later. The earliest cause is 1 Corinthians 7 where St. Paul indicates that the unmarried state is superior. That is why many of the Apostles, who started out married, embraced unmarried life after the passing of their wives. Matthew 19:12 is also relevant, as I do not want to imply this idea rests solely on the Apostle St. Paul.
angelzen 5y ago
Like you said, this is not a uniquely Christian Church problem. Likely we are looking this from the wrong angle: it's not the institution that is the primary issue, it's the population of would be abusers that are seeking roles that give them access to children. Given the level of motivated reasoning in this space and the quickly shifting definitions, it is unfortunately very difficult to have a conversation over specifics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education...
- candiodari 5y ago
  In other Western European nations it has become clear that one thing schools, but especially boarding schools, fostering situations and institutions (youth care and mental health) do is provide people with access to easy-to-abuse people. This applies to kids, and vulnerable adults. Even in blended families, which are of course a fact of life if we want to have easy divorces, it happens, though not nearly as much. There are 2 groups of people who abuse this. First there's a number of people who take such jobs planning to abuse kids from the very beginning. These people exist across the spectrum: physical abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse and psychological abuse cases. There are theoretical measures in place to prevent this (essentially demanding criminal history), that, to put it bluntly, don't work. You should include people who have no choice and take a job in, say, child protection. Such people are incredibly destructive because of the number of kids they damage while filling in subsidy forms how they are helping them. The catch is that it doesn't provide them with much financial benefits, so people like to exclude this situation. But the reality is that the same people insisting on fairness when having a $20000 competition, tear others apart for a 20$ reward. Likewise there's people taking a child protection job because of how much power it gives you over others, for example. There are incredibly bad examples of this. They may tell themselves they're in it to "help kids". Help them get something they lacked as a child, for example. So they throw kids into the foster care system because they have to go to school on foot in the rain, which, to put it very mildly, does not improve the lives of these children. The second group is people who have no idea they are abusers. They suddenly discover a lack of self-control once they are put into a situation where abuse is very easy, and these people suddenly find they cannot resist when presented with the opportunity. I think this is partly because people present an entirely evil view of abusers, when in fact abuse usually comes from 2 sides: sex for drugs arrangements for example, where both sides are guilty of inducing the other side to criminal acts. One is much worse than the other, and this should, of course, be reflected in punishments, but people don't expect "victims" in institutions to be looking for such arrangements. People don't expect to suddenly have both sympathy for abuse situations, see the "advantage" it provides both sides, for victims, and especially don't expect what they saw as pure innocent "victims" to not be nearly as pure. All this then happens in a VERY short timeframe, and of course this happens in jobs that are already very stressful, and often happens while the abuser is under pressure, which the victim may be trying to increase. But then there's the problem with punishing such offenders. In reality the government is partly responsible for most/all child abuse. Why? They employ the offenders, and often the kid's choice was very limited, both when getting assigned to this offender (which was done by some government system and not the kid's choice) and, often, when the kid is trying to get away from the offender ("don't tell anyone or I'll refer you to closed youth care"), this was hindered or even made impossible by government-imposed systems. Even when it does come to light, institutions often choose to "protect their reputations".
dragonwriter 5y ago
> but there is some evidence that child abuse is common among Protestant churches too And scouting and similar organizations. The Catholic Church is a big focus for a number of reasons. Aside from anti-Catholic animus, the fact that its a uniquely large international heirarchical organization rather than a loose federation of organizationally independent national churches, dioceses, or independent local churches like the Protestant churches is a big reason. EDIT: That is both a direct reason for the focus of attention, and also an indirect reason (because the greater number of lawsuits is a reason for the focus, but that is because the structure of the Church makes it a better lawsuit target—a bigger potential bag of money—even when the facts are similar than many other organizations.)
methodiosmel 5y ago
And in public schools...

atatatat 5y ago

Wait til you hear where the reports to nonprofits fighting child trafficking go!

duckah 5y ago
Niggers do it the most.