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I've seen a few people fall off the career ladder to their doom in different fields. I once was a member of a local hackerspace and the place was like the Islan

by WriterGuy2021 5y ago

I've seen a few people fall off the career ladder to their doom in different fields. I once was a member of a local hackerspace and the place was like the Island of Misfit Toys. So many interesting and talented people biding there time there in between jobs and struggling to get back on the ladder. Lots of horror stories -- a homeless mechanical engineer, a couch surfing old programmer, etc. I think most of us are quite insulated from what really goes on around us, and the people that fall down hard often aren't heard from ever again. As Bukowski wrote: "... our educational system tells us that we can all be big-ass winners. it hasn't told us about the gutters or the suicides. or the terror of one person aching in one place alone untouched unspoken to watering a plant."

adnmcq999 5y ago
I’m basically one of those people. I appreciate the post because it’s good to at least acknowledge this.
WastingMyTime89 5y ago
I don't know. At some point, it's also a question of perception and attitude. Falling off the career ladder is in itself a strange idea. As I get older, it seems to me that the concept has little actual reality. Few people have linear career nowadays. At some point, things tend to take a turn for the unexpected. It can be failing to reach the position you were aiming for or suddenly finding yourself unemployed. It can also be becoming in charge of something you weren't expecting and finding you like that more than you thought. You have to find an equilibrium between playing the card you are given and stiring your life in the direction you want. It's not always easy but you can find interesting things to do from many positions. I can't stop thinking that to you they were horror stories but that might not entierely be the case from their point of view: hanging out at an hacker space, meeting people, working on new things, that's not the worst place to be if you want to rebound.
- WriterGuy2021 5y ago
  Here's a concrete example. There was a guy that had a PhD and worked for big pharma as a researcher all his life. The company he was working for downsized and he was left unemployed at 54. He looked for another position somewhere else, but he could not find a position at his pervious level of seniority: he had fallen off the career ladder. He was thus stuck in a strange limbo: he was capable of doing things below his level of experience, but companies were looking for someone at the right level of the progression system to fit the slot. The worst thing about this case is that his wife had multiple sclerosis, and so his health insurance was of the utmost importance to him. This caused him incredible stress as he continued to look for work to no avail. The problem with the modern workplace is specialization. Some people are extraordinarily specialized. The man I spoke of was highly talented, but also highly specialized. It's hard for someone to adapt at 54 to another specialization. I actually helped him pick up python, and he learned quickly, but it was clear that the man was not in his spry years. Any college kid could beat him in productivity in some code monkey role -- which is what he eventually started trying to hunt for. I could also tell you about a guy that had a masters degree in chemical engineering working at Best Buy alongside me when I was in college. I've met so many people in my life that have not been privy to the dynamically lateral career system you seem to be aware of. I know from direct experience that some people do indeed fall off the ladder. To me it isn't a concept: it's the reality I've observed.
  - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
    > I could also tell you about a guy that had a masters degree in chemical engineering working at Best Buy alongside me when I was in college. I've met so many people in my life that have not been privy to the dynamically lateral career system you seem to be aware of. Well he obviously was. He was working at Best Buy.
    - blub 5y ago
      It seems your thesis was conclusively disproved by the parent poster and you're just nitpicking. This would be a good time to stop posting and reconsider your approach.
    - 5y ago
- Yoric 5y ago
  > Falling off the career ladder is in itself a strange idea. As I get older, it seems to me that the concept has little actual reality. Few people have linear career nowadays. I basically fell of the career ladder early in my previous career as an Academic. Not as bad as falling off in the private sector, as I remained employed, but I picked the wrong job twice, had a little bad luck and became stuck in a crappy position, unable to move forward, unable to change university, and of course in permanent burnout. I got away by joining a start-up and this relaunched my career, quite successfully, on a very different track. Not everybody has that opportunity, though.
throw1234651234 5y ago
When I studied for the Chartered Financial Analyst exams I tried to find out who got a job after the 3-year, 750 hr minimum commitment (GCP professional architect looks like a joke in comparison). EVERYTHING I read was positive. Once I passed, I found a ton of people in the same boat as me - unable to find work in finance. No one wanted to admit it though.
- WriterGuy2021 5y ago
  It happens a lot. I've seen it first hand and I've also read plenty of horror stories on the internet. There's definitely a shocking disconnect between the education system and the job market. Many people are becoming qualified for jobs that simply aren't there. What a nightmare.
  - throw1234651234 5y ago
    I think it's genuinely the fact that interests of the university / professors / exam provider / "board" are completely counter to that of the student, especially when the profession is shrinking. I was taught to think that education is sacred and to think that the professors/institution has my best interest in mind. The naivete lasted up to my mid early 20s, which is definitely an issue. (I am obviously still pro-education, but education with very deliberate goals, which can, of course, be general education).
    - WriterGuy2021 5y ago
      There's no feedback mechanisms which penalize the university for turning out unemployable graduates. Peter Thiel actually talks quite a bit about this. I think you're right on the money. We must consider the increased cost of a university education and how its function has shifted in society. The university, for the most part, is now a training ground for corporations. We can see this in the dramatic shift away from the humanities and intense focus on STEM. STEM is essentially a corporate career path -- especially science. So we have a strange situation: universities are acting like job training institutions, but they are not directly coupled to industry. They want to maintain their ivory tower aloofness, but they lost their ivory tower status when they opened up the floodgates and became part of the cooperate pipeline. I think the university system is having an identity crisis. This wouldn't be the first time it has changed what it is. We must remember that the prototype of the modern university was a semi-religious institution used to train the clergy. Funny that you speak about the ideal of education being sacred...at one time it literally was. And perhaps the secularization of the university system is also a symbol of losing that sacredness. Certainly, the demands of the earth are more important to the university of today than the demands of those platonic realms home to pure intellectual curiosity and moral transcendence.
appleflaxen 5y ago
Fantastic quote
lanstin 5y ago
I tend to dress a bit sloppily and take public transit, so I end up talking to a fair number of homeless folks. about half of them (I live in Sillicon Valley) are former software engineers (half after filtering out the schizophrenic or super drunk people). Pre-FAANG salaries but still.
- WriterGuy2021 5y ago
  > I tend to dress a bit sloppily and take public transit, so I end up talking to a fair number of homeless folks. There's dressing sloppy and then there's dressing like a homeless person sloppy. Sorry for making light of your depressing observation, but that setup sentence made me laugh.

adnmcq999 5y ago

I’m basically one of those people. I appreciate the post because it’s good to at least acknowledge this.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago

I don't know. At some point, it's also a question of perception and attitude. Falling off the career ladder is in itself a strange idea. As I get older, it seems to me that the concept has little actual reality. Few people have linear career nowadays. At some point, things tend to take a turn for the unexpected. It can be failing to reach the position you were aiming for or suddenly finding yourself unemployed. It can also be becoming in charge of something you weren't expecting and finding you like that more than you thought. You have to find an equilibrium between playing the card you are given and stiring your life in the direction you want. It's not always easy but you can find interesting things to do from many positions. I can't stop thinking that to you they were horror stories but that might not entierely be the case from their point of view: hanging out at an hacker space, meeting people, working on new things, that's not the worst place to be if you want to rebound.

WriterGuy2021 5y ago
Here's a concrete example. There was a guy that had a PhD and worked for big pharma as a researcher all his life. The company he was working for downsized and he was left unemployed at 54. He looked for another position somewhere else, but he could not find a position at his pervious level of seniority: he had fallen off the career ladder. He was thus stuck in a strange limbo: he was capable of doing things below his level of experience, but companies were looking for someone at the right level of the progression system to fit the slot. The worst thing about this case is that his wife had multiple sclerosis, and so his health insurance was of the utmost importance to him. This caused him incredible stress as he continued to look for work to no avail. The problem with the modern workplace is specialization. Some people are extraordinarily specialized. The man I spoke of was highly talented, but also highly specialized. It's hard for someone to adapt at 54 to another specialization. I actually helped him pick up python, and he learned quickly, but it was clear that the man was not in his spry years. Any college kid could beat him in productivity in some code monkey role -- which is what he eventually started trying to hunt for. I could also tell you about a guy that had a masters degree in chemical engineering working at Best Buy alongside me when I was in college. I've met so many people in my life that have not been privy to the dynamically lateral career system you seem to be aware of. I know from direct experience that some people do indeed fall off the ladder. To me it isn't a concept: it's the reality I've observed.
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago
  > I could also tell you about a guy that had a masters degree in chemical engineering working at Best Buy alongside me when I was in college. I've met so many people in my life that have not been privy to the dynamically lateral career system you seem to be aware of. Well he obviously was. He was working at Best Buy.
  - blub 5y ago
    It seems your thesis was conclusively disproved by the parent poster and you're just nitpicking. This would be a good time to stop posting and reconsider your approach.
  - 5y ago
Yoric 5y ago
> Falling off the career ladder is in itself a strange idea. As I get older, it seems to me that the concept has little actual reality. Few people have linear career nowadays. I basically fell of the career ladder early in my previous career as an Academic. Not as bad as falling off in the private sector, as I remained employed, but I picked the wrong job twice, had a little bad luck and became stuck in a crappy position, unable to move forward, unable to change university, and of course in permanent burnout. I got away by joining a start-up and this relaunched my career, quite successfully, on a very different track. Not everybody has that opportunity, though.

throw1234651234 5y ago

When I studied for the Chartered Financial Analyst exams I tried to find out who got a job after the 3-year, 750 hr minimum commitment (GCP professional architect looks like a joke in comparison). EVERYTHING I read was positive. Once I passed, I found a ton of people in the same boat as me - unable to find work in finance. No one wanted to admit it though.

WriterGuy2021 5y ago
It happens a lot. I've seen it first hand and I've also read plenty of horror stories on the internet. There's definitely a shocking disconnect between the education system and the job market. Many people are becoming qualified for jobs that simply aren't there. What a nightmare.
- throw1234651234 5y ago
  I think it's genuinely the fact that interests of the university / professors / exam provider / "board" are completely counter to that of the student, especially when the profession is shrinking. I was taught to think that education is sacred and to think that the professors/institution has my best interest in mind. The naivete lasted up to my mid early 20s, which is definitely an issue. (I am obviously still pro-education, but education with very deliberate goals, which can, of course, be general education).
  - WriterGuy2021 5y ago
    There's no feedback mechanisms which penalize the university for turning out unemployable graduates. Peter Thiel actually talks quite a bit about this. I think you're right on the money. We must consider the increased cost of a university education and how its function has shifted in society. The university, for the most part, is now a training ground for corporations. We can see this in the dramatic shift away from the humanities and intense focus on STEM. STEM is essentially a corporate career path -- especially science. So we have a strange situation: universities are acting like job training institutions, but they are not directly coupled to industry. They want to maintain their ivory tower aloofness, but they lost their ivory tower status when they opened up the floodgates and became part of the cooperate pipeline. I think the university system is having an identity crisis. This wouldn't be the first time it has changed what it is. We must remember that the prototype of the modern university was a semi-religious institution used to train the clergy. Funny that you speak about the ideal of education being sacred...at one time it literally was. And perhaps the secularization of the university system is also a symbol of losing that sacredness. Certainly, the demands of the earth are more important to the university of today than the demands of those platonic realms home to pure intellectual curiosity and moral transcendence.

appleflaxen 5y ago

Fantastic quote

lanstin 5y ago

I tend to dress a bit sloppily and take public transit, so I end up talking to a fair number of homeless folks. about half of them (I live in Sillicon Valley) are former software engineers (half after filtering out the schizophrenic or super drunk people). Pre-FAANG salaries but still.

WriterGuy2021 5y ago
> I tend to dress a bit sloppily and take public transit, so I end up talking to a fair number of homeless folks. There's dressing sloppy and then there's dressing like a homeless person sloppy. Sorry for making light of your depressing observation, but that setup sentence made me laugh.