10 ms·

Large? Excessive? Yes. Insane? No. The system isn't just about compensation. The amount needs to be high enough to actually influence the wrongdoer, to dissu

Large? Excessive? Yes. Insane? No. The system isn't just about compensation. The amount needs to be high enough to actually influence the wrongdoer, to dissuade repeat behavior. Maybe this jury thought this the smallest number that would cause Tesla to make actual changes to its workplace. I do chuckle at how much money from each subsequent tesla sale will be going to pay down this lawsuit. 127mil / 500k = 254$ per car for a year. Given the price of a new Tesla that doesn't actually seem very big, and will certainly be reduced on appeal.

killtimeatwork 5y ago
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that crime/misdemeanor deterrence is a duty of the criminal law, while civil law is only about righting the wrongs of specific people/legal entities. In any case, I'd LOVE to go through whatever the guy came through in exchange for just $1m (a completely life-changing amount of money for me), let alone $137m... These verdicts ARE insane.
jollybean 5y ago
It's completely insane, full stop. What this will 'incentivize' is absolutely everyone suing their employer, right now, for discrimination of some kind. Being called some choice things is bad, but there are worse things that happen in this world, particularly in the area of safety. The damages need to be commensurate with the actions, not some kind of incentive driven thing.
throwaway4good 5y ago
It just pursuades the wrongdoer to enforce mandatory arbitration agreements.
- rambambram 5y ago
  I don't know the applicable US law, but there might be a difference between mandatory arbitration and civil law suits on one hand, and criminal law on the other. It couldn't be that you sign something with a company, and that contract also means police can't do shit about shit. I guess racism is part of criminal law? And besides, it is really easy to not be racist.
  - throwaway4good 5y ago
    As far as I can tell this is a civil lawsuit.
- paganel 5y ago
  > o enforce mandatory arbitration agreements And maybe that should force the powers that be (state-level? federal-level? not sure) to make that enforcement illegal.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  There is more than on reason folks do mandatory arbitration agreements - I'm not entirely sure this is the main one. Mandatory arbitration keeps such things out of the public record and often silences the accuser.
paganel 5y ago
> The amount needs to be high enough to actually influence the wrongdoer Totally agree, from the article: > faced a hostile work environment in which, he told the court, colleagues used epithets to denigrate him and other Black workers, told him to “go back to Africa” and left racist graffiti in the restrooms and a racist drawing in his workspace. Yes, maybe this amount of money will convince companies like Tesla to actually do something. Hit them where it hurts, and 127 million per one worker should hurt.
- hjuoygjkghu 5y ago
  This kind of money will incentivize "crews" to appear which will make this kind of abuse happen no matter the policies. 10 people team working for one year, that is 1 mil per month per person, and if it didn't work, you still got a basic salary.
- BoHerfVIJrEsq 5y ago
  > colleagues used epithets to denigrate him and other Black workers, told him to “go back to Africa” and left racist graffiti in the restrooms and a racist drawing in his workspace I don't believe a word of this.
BluSyn 5y ago
It is insane. There's a huge line between justice and grift, and I mainly blame lawyers for the latter. If every claim of hostile workplaces resulted in similar settlements, every company would be bankrupt within a few years. A company can have a strict zero tolerance policy, but they can't police every action of every employee while on the clock. Such settlements would likely incentivize companies to put cameras and microphones everywhere, including bathrooms, which would also result in "emotion distress". Forced arbitration isn't just either, but the court system hasn't left much room for alternative with such overreaching punishments.
- Valakas_ 5y ago
  No, it's not insane. Emotional abuse isn't a one time thing, by several employees. It's a systemic problem because of particular employees with abusive tendencies, and/or toxic company rules. In either case, there is no need for such surveillance to see such abuse from miles away. I'm 100% everyone knew about this ongoing abuse. There would be no need whatsoever for any of the suggestions you mentioned to have prevented this from happening.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  Lol this is ridiculous. Don't make a hostile work environment or fuck around and find out? Theres literally a pending class action against Tesla for this. They have a systemic problem that they're going to have to address or keep getting fined. 137 million is pennies for the company anyway. Some might find this hard to believe but it's really easy not to be racist. It really really is.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    I wonder if each participant in that class action is awarded similar amount to this 137 million.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- ngcazz 5y ago
madaxe_again 5y ago
I think the award is problematic due to a simple and ancient human trait: envy. Consider. While the intent may be punitive damages to dissuade the bad actor from bad actions in the future, the effect is often instead resentment by many towards the awardee. This then perpetuates a cycle of suspicion, hostility, and potentially harms minorities rather than helping them, as this cycle inevitably anneals into right-wing politics. On a small scale, this might be an employer deciding to avoid hiring minorities in order to avoid the risk of a huge settlement. On a large scale, a country could go to war over reparations that they felt were unjust. I think there’s a happy medium. Let the awardee have an award equivalent to their actual harm - and the punitive damages all go to charity, or to a governmental or quango fund to combat the issues that have caused the fund to grow. This inhibits selfish motivations and the perceptions of them, and would still perform the same function in terms of punishment.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  And at 100 million plus, frivolous lawsuits really start look enticing. Maybe it really starts to makes sense to try even if the case is not very strong or even doesn't exist. And this puts burden on both companies and legal system in general. Which I don't think is very desired.
jl6 5y ago
Why is the amount not split into a smaller, proportionate, compensation payment to the worker, and a larger, deterrent fine payment to a regulator/government?
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  That’s precisely what happened. From the article: > The jury awarded more than attorneys asked for their client, including $130 million in punitive damages and $6.9 million for emotional distress.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I would find it entirely sensible to have something like 100M fine to government. And then a few tens of thousands to worker and attorney fees. Paying the massive payout to worker and attorneys, just seems insane and resulting frivolous suites. Not saying this one was one.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    >>...100M fine to government. That always sounds like a good idea but isn't really practical. It makes government a party to every lawsuit, matters that are supposed to be between two parties. The court is supposed to be the neutral arbitrator. Having the government raking in money from the civil judgements creates perverse incentives.
    - jl6 5y ago
      More perverse than setting up $100m paydays for gangs who conspire to create discrimination situations within corporations?
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    It wouldn’t be worth it from the employees perspective, they will struggle to get another job after this.
me_me_me 5y ago
Where can I sign up for this? A year? I'll be generous and do it for 100mil. I condemn any discrimination and I am ok with tesla getting hard slapped, but it fill like an overkill for what happen to them. They could make them pay few mil to the person and rest to charity or something.
torginus 5y ago
As a non-American, this does strike me as odd. Probably Mr. Diaz wasn't the only person who has experience abuse and racist harassment yet he is the only one getting a sky-high payday. What about everyone else who probably has to put up with the same abuse?

killtimeatwork 5y ago

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that crime/misdemeanor deterrence is a duty of the criminal law, while civil law is only about righting the wrongs of specific people/legal entities. In any case, I'd LOVE to go through whatever the guy came through in exchange for just $1m (a completely life-changing amount of money for me), let alone $137m... These verdicts ARE insane.

jollybean 5y ago

It's completely insane, full stop. What this will 'incentivize' is absolutely everyone suing their employer, right now, for discrimination of some kind. Being called some choice things is bad, but there are worse things that happen in this world, particularly in the area of safety. The damages need to be commensurate with the actions, not some kind of incentive driven thing.

throwaway4good 5y ago

It just pursuades the wrongdoer to enforce mandatory arbitration agreements.

rambambram 5y ago
I don't know the applicable US law, but there might be a difference between mandatory arbitration and civil law suits on one hand, and criminal law on the other. It couldn't be that you sign something with a company, and that contract also means police can't do shit about shit. I guess racism is part of criminal law? And besides, it is really easy to not be racist.
- throwaway4good 5y ago
  As far as I can tell this is a civil lawsuit.
paganel 5y ago
> o enforce mandatory arbitration agreements And maybe that should force the powers that be (state-level? federal-level? not sure) to make that enforcement illegal.
Broken_Hippo 5y ago
There is more than on reason folks do mandatory arbitration agreements - I'm not entirely sure this is the main one. Mandatory arbitration keeps such things out of the public record and often silences the accuser.

paganel 5y ago

> The amount needs to be high enough to actually influence the wrongdoer Totally agree, from the article: > faced a hostile work environment in which, he told the court, colleagues used epithets to denigrate him and other Black workers, told him to “go back to Africa” and left racist graffiti in the restrooms and a racist drawing in his workspace. Yes, maybe this amount of money will convince companies like Tesla to actually do something. Hit them where it hurts, and 127 million per one worker should hurt.

hjuoygjkghu 5y ago
This kind of money will incentivize "crews" to appear which will make this kind of abuse happen no matter the policies. 10 people team working for one year, that is 1 mil per month per person, and if it didn't work, you still got a basic salary.
BoHerfVIJrEsq 5y ago
> colleagues used epithets to denigrate him and other Black workers, told him to “go back to Africa” and left racist graffiti in the restrooms and a racist drawing in his workspace I don't believe a word of this.

BluSyn 5y ago

It is insane. There's a huge line between justice and grift, and I mainly blame lawyers for the latter. If every claim of hostile workplaces resulted in similar settlements, every company would be bankrupt within a few years. A company can have a strict zero tolerance policy, but they can't police every action of every employee while on the clock. Such settlements would likely incentivize companies to put cameras and microphones everywhere, including bathrooms, which would also result in "emotion distress". Forced arbitration isn't just either, but the court system hasn't left much room for alternative with such overreaching punishments.

Valakas_ 5y ago
No, it's not insane. Emotional abuse isn't a one time thing, by several employees. It's a systemic problem because of particular employees with abusive tendencies, and/or toxic company rules. In either case, there is no need for such surveillance to see such abuse from miles away. I'm 100% everyone knew about this ongoing abuse. There would be no need whatsoever for any of the suggestions you mentioned to have prevented this from happening.
aaomidi 5y ago
Lol this is ridiculous. Don't make a hostile work environment or fuck around and find out? Theres literally a pending class action against Tesla for this. They have a systemic problem that they're going to have to address or keep getting fined. 137 million is pennies for the company anyway. Some might find this hard to believe but it's really easy not to be racist. It really really is.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I wonder if each participant in that class action is awarded similar amount to this 137 million.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
ngcazz 5y ago

madaxe_again 5y ago

I think the award is problematic due to a simple and ancient human trait: envy. Consider. While the intent may be punitive damages to dissuade the bad actor from bad actions in the future, the effect is often instead resentment by many towards the awardee. This then perpetuates a cycle of suspicion, hostility, and potentially harms minorities rather than helping them, as this cycle inevitably anneals into right-wing politics. On a small scale, this might be an employer deciding to avoid hiring minorities in order to avoid the risk of a huge settlement. On a large scale, a country could go to war over reparations that they felt were unjust. I think there’s a happy medium. Let the awardee have an award equivalent to their actual harm - and the punitive damages all go to charity, or to a governmental or quango fund to combat the issues that have caused the fund to grow. This inhibits selfish motivations and the perceptions of them, and would still perform the same function in terms of punishment.

Ekaros 5y ago
And at 100 million plus, frivolous lawsuits really start look enticing. Maybe it really starts to makes sense to try even if the case is not very strong or even doesn't exist. And this puts burden on both companies and legal system in general. Which I don't think is very desired.

jl6 5y ago

Why is the amount not split into a smaller, proportionate, compensation payment to the worker, and a larger, deterrent fine payment to a regulator/government?

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
That’s precisely what happened. From the article: > The jury awarded more than attorneys asked for their client, including $130 million in punitive damages and $6.9 million for emotional distress.
Ekaros 5y ago
I would find it entirely sensible to have something like 100M fine to government. And then a few tens of thousands to worker and attorney fees. Paying the massive payout to worker and attorneys, just seems insane and resulting frivolous suites. Not saying this one was one.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  >>...100M fine to government. That always sounds like a good idea but isn't really practical. It makes government a party to every lawsuit, matters that are supposed to be between two parties. The court is supposed to be the neutral arbitrator. Having the government raking in money from the civil judgements creates perverse incentives.
  - jl6 5y ago
    More perverse than setting up $100m paydays for gangs who conspire to create discrimination situations within corporations?
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  It wouldn’t be worth it from the employees perspective, they will struggle to get another job after this.

me_me_me 5y ago

Where can I sign up for this? A year? I'll be generous and do it for 100mil. I condemn any discrimination and I am ok with tesla getting hard slapped, but it fill like an overkill for what happen to them. They could make them pay few mil to the person and rest to charity or something.

torginus 5y ago

As a non-American, this does strike me as odd. Probably Mr. Diaz wasn't the only person who has experience abuse and racist harassment yet he is the only one getting a sky-high payday. What about everyone else who probably has to put up with the same abuse?