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Clinics distributed a box of pills with no proven efficacy for the SARS CoV-2 virus, but with significant downsides, and with no tracking. This was not a contro

Clinics distributed a box of pills with no proven efficacy for the SARS CoV-2 virus, but with significant downsides, and with no tracking. This was not a controlled experiment, this was negligent homicide, recklessly endangering a population by abusing their misplaced faith in careless medical and pseudo-medical "professionals".

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
“Negligent homicide” is hyperbole. The medication itself is safe, safer than paracetamol / acetaminophen. If you are saying it gave too many people false hope and they died from Covid, isn’t that the problem everywhere else without false hope? Are deaths in Australia “better” than deaths in Brazil because Ozzies didn’t attempt the same treatment? Does ivermectin not function extremely well as a protease inhibitor? It probably doesn’t work anything for Covid, but it scientifically can prevent some viral binding despite that not being it’s primary function. So making an educated guess wrong is one thing, having people abuse pills is another, and killing people unintentionally through criminal actions is another still. Be rationale and reasonable. Because going overboard on accusations isn’t helping anyone nor adding to any scientific discussion.
- IntrepidWorm 5y ago
  To be clear- many of the cases of serious injury or death were people taking wildly high doses of ivermectin, beyond any reasonable dosage. Ivermectin does have some safe use cases for human prescription: there is no acceptable evidence that it is effective in the least for treating or preventing Covid. https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-100956/v4 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-100956/v4 Much of the buzz was generated by the above preprint study, now retracted for some serious concerns that large portions were plagiarized and cherry-picked, and in some instances fabricated completely. https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93658 https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/9365... One of the problems with ivermectin is that it is widely available and cheap. This is great if you are trying to treat river blindness or prevent your horse from contracting worms, but terrible when a deeply flawed (yet widely cited) purports it to be a miracle cure.
- bb88 5y ago
  > The medication itself is safe Upon what dosage do you base that on? And particularly is it safe for covid patients, or does it increase mortality? Many doctors are in the US pushing Ivermectin and HCQ as "safe and effective" even though the #1 call to many poison control centers in the US concern Ivermectin poisoning. > Because going overboard on accusations isn’t helping anyone nor adding to any scientific discussion. Giving false hope (or false cures) is by far worse -- and that appears to be the case as to what happened in Brazil. Politicians were pushing Ivermectin as a way to reopen the economy. It's snake oil at it's worst form, and reduces trust between patients and doctors.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    > Upon what dosage do you base that on? The recommended human dosage. The one that hasn’t been a problem, ever, not in the millions and millions of people on it. Unlike the extremely common liver damage people get from Tylenol every year. > or does it increase mortality? I have never seen anyone claim that. Do you have a link that makes that claim? If you bring up a possibility without evidence. I guess that will make for spirited comments soon. > Many doctors are in the US pushing Ivermectin and HCQ as "safe and effective" even though the #1 call to many poison control centers in the US concern Ivermectin poisoning. Number one call would not mean number one poisoning. It has unbelievably high media attention, and discussion is being censored. People seem to be calling to ask because “officials” why wouldn’t they? If you have a citation that shows mass poisonings please post it. I could only find two confirmed poisonings in the USA. Whole tubes of horse paste like idiots. > It's snake oil at it's worst form, and reduces trust between patients and doctors. Good thing this has been the only example of that! I agree though, if there were questionable truths, policy decisions on 1/2 baked theories, changing and shifting narratives, that would be harmful for trust. That to me would be epic failures of policy work and would probably cause a backlash in a lot of areas.
    - bb88 5y ago
      >> or does it increase mortality? >I have never seen anyone claim that. It's part of being "safe and effective." -- which I believe is your stance here. It's also your burden of proof. > The recommended human dosage. Which is what exactly? I mean, if you want to be an expert, than be an expert. Nothing is stopping you.
huuuz 5y ago
By your logic we should stop selling paracetamol.
incrudible 5y ago
The same happened with Remdesivir, a drug that is much more expensive and has more severe side-effects than Ivermectin. This isn't "pseudo-medicine", it's just how medicine works. If there's an emergency and some small trial suggests that there's an effect for minimal risk, you roll it out and see what happens.

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago

“Negligent homicide” is hyperbole. The medication itself is safe, safer than paracetamol / acetaminophen. If you are saying it gave too many people false hope and they died from Covid, isn’t that the problem everywhere else without false hope? Are deaths in Australia “better” than deaths in Brazil because Ozzies didn’t attempt the same treatment? Does ivermectin not function extremely well as a protease inhibitor? It probably doesn’t work anything for Covid, but it scientifically can prevent some viral binding despite that not being it’s primary function. So making an educated guess wrong is one thing, having people abuse pills is another, and killing people unintentionally through criminal actions is another still. Be rationale and reasonable. Because going overboard on accusations isn’t helping anyone nor adding to any scientific discussion.

IntrepidWorm 5y ago
To be clear- many of the cases of serious injury or death were people taking wildly high doses of ivermectin, beyond any reasonable dosage. Ivermectin does have some safe use cases for human prescription: there is no acceptable evidence that it is effective in the least for treating or preventing Covid. https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-100956/v4 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-100956/v4 Much of the buzz was generated by the above preprint study, now retracted for some serious concerns that large portions were plagiarized and cherry-picked, and in some instances fabricated completely. https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93658 https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/9365... One of the problems with ivermectin is that it is widely available and cheap. This is great if you are trying to treat river blindness or prevent your horse from contracting worms, but terrible when a deeply flawed (yet widely cited) purports it to be a miracle cure.
bb88 5y ago
> The medication itself is safe Upon what dosage do you base that on? And particularly is it safe for covid patients, or does it increase mortality? Many doctors are in the US pushing Ivermectin and HCQ as "safe and effective" even though the #1 call to many poison control centers in the US concern Ivermectin poisoning. > Because going overboard on accusations isn’t helping anyone nor adding to any scientific discussion. Giving false hope (or false cures) is by far worse -- and that appears to be the case as to what happened in Brazil. Politicians were pushing Ivermectin as a way to reopen the economy. It's snake oil at it's worst form, and reduces trust between patients and doctors.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  > Upon what dosage do you base that on? The recommended human dosage. The one that hasn’t been a problem, ever, not in the millions and millions of people on it. Unlike the extremely common liver damage people get from Tylenol every year. > or does it increase mortality? I have never seen anyone claim that. Do you have a link that makes that claim? If you bring up a possibility without evidence. I guess that will make for spirited comments soon. > Many doctors are in the US pushing Ivermectin and HCQ as "safe and effective" even though the #1 call to many poison control centers in the US concern Ivermectin poisoning. Number one call would not mean number one poisoning. It has unbelievably high media attention, and discussion is being censored. People seem to be calling to ask because “officials” why wouldn’t they? If you have a citation that shows mass poisonings please post it. I could only find two confirmed poisonings in the USA. Whole tubes of horse paste like idiots. > It's snake oil at it's worst form, and reduces trust between patients and doctors. Good thing this has been the only example of that! I agree though, if there were questionable truths, policy decisions on 1/2 baked theories, changing and shifting narratives, that would be harmful for trust. That to me would be epic failures of policy work and would probably cause a backlash in a lot of areas.
  - bb88 5y ago
    >> or does it increase mortality? >I have never seen anyone claim that. It's part of being "safe and effective." -- which I believe is your stance here. It's also your burden of proof. > The recommended human dosage. Which is what exactly? I mean, if you want to be an expert, than be an expert. Nothing is stopping you.

huuuz 5y ago

By your logic we should stop selling paracetamol.

incrudible 5y ago

The same happened with Remdesivir, a drug that is much more expensive and has more severe side-effects than Ivermectin. This isn't "pseudo-medicine", it's just how medicine works. If there's an emergency and some small trial suggests that there's an effect for minimal risk, you roll it out and see what happens.