6 ms·

Would you hire a carpenter that didn't believe in nails? Or a software engineer that didn't believe in binary?

rwcarlsen 5y ago
That's a pretty poor analogy. Nails are often the right and often the wrong tool for different circumstances. And there are different kinds of nails. Lots of carpenters have preferences for what types of hardware they use - based on their own experience and that of experience from others. And even if I disagreed with a carpenter on what tools were right for any given particular circumstance, it would be silly to try to micromanage them doing their job - just let them do their work!
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  I can see "nails vs screws" ending in a brawl if enough alcohol is served beforehand. The first punch would probably be thrown after the clipboard warrior makes some quip about dovetails and other "fastener free" joints and gets everyone riled up.
  - rwcarlsen 5y ago
    I'm a draw-bored mortise and tenon guy myself.
- AdamHominem 5y ago
  But if an expert in fasteners says "use this nail/bolt, made of this material and grade, for this application"...and then Joe Roofer says "WELL I actually work on roofs unlike those ivory tower mechanical and structural engineers, I'll use what I think is best" and then years later a couple people get killed... There are a lot of infamous incidents caused by people thinking they know better than the people who designed stuff and actually had training, experience, and education in that field. Doing things like changing fastener grades, or styles, or completely changing how something is put together. The most ready example I can think of is the hotel bridge collapse that killed a couple dozen people, because some mouth-breather thought he knew better than the structural engineers that drew up plans on how to anchor the bridge to its overhead supports. Virtually nobody at a hospital is qualified to second-guess vaccines, and the people who do are people I don't want anywhere near patient care because they're going to second-guess other experts, like the doctors they work with, the instructions for equipment and drugs, etc.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Would you listen to an expert doctor who didn't wash his hands before childbirth or a old wive's tail midwife? BEcause this is an actual life and death scenario, and history doesn't look well on the 'experts'. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/375663920/the-doctor-who-championed-hand-washing-and-saved-women-s-lives https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/3756639...
  - dudeofea 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge#First_design_and_collapse_of_August_29,_1907 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge#First_design_and...
  - tzs 5y ago
    > Virtually nobody at a hospital is qualified to second-guess vaccines ...and the people in the hospital are also in a great position to verify that (1) vaccines work. Let P(H|V) be the probability that had outcome H happens if you are vaccinated, and let P(H|~V) be the probability of that had outcome when you are not vaccinated. Then P(H|V) / P(H|~V) = P(~V) / P(V) x P(V|H) / P(~V|H) where P(V|H) is the probability that someone with outcome H was vaccinated, and P(~V|H) is the probability that someone with outcome H was not vaccinated. All they need to do is look at their patients that have outcome H (such as being hospitalized, or dying) and count how many were vaccinated and how many were not, find out the vaccination rate of the community their patients came from, and they can calculate P(H|V) / P(H|~V) which is how much vaccination reduces your chances of H. For example, if 70% of the people in your community are vaccinated, and you have 50 people who died from COVID in the last month, 5 vaccinated and 45 not vaccinated, you'd get that P(H|V) / P(H|~V) = 0.048. Vaccination is reducing a person's chances of dying by 95%. So even if they don't want to just trust the experts they can see for themselves that the experts are telling the truth.
    - simondotau 5y ago
      Or for people who want their math in pie chart form https://twitter.com/simondotau/status/1444537141413888003 https://twitter.com/simondotau/status/1444537141413888003
rajin444 5y ago
Unfortunately vaccine efficacy is something almost nobody can verify on their own so trust is required. The real question is: why do you trust people that they don't?
MarkLowenstein 5y ago
They're probably like me. I know the vaccine helps. I also know that I have near-zero risk from COVID. So I don't get the vaccine because I don't like injecting unnecessary stuff in there.
- jaas 5y ago
  It’s not all about you. Unvaccinated people are more likely to infect others. Stop being selfish and get vaccinated.
  - sdjfhsdkfhlskjh 5y ago
    >It’s not all about you... >Stop being selfish and... His body his choice.
    - staplers 5y ago
      Healthcare providers choice to fire their employees.
      - TacticalCoder 5y ago
        Even some who got tested positive in the past and who have better immunity than most of the vaccinated ones...
- bigodbiel 5y ago
  Or they got it already, and equally or better protected than by vaccination.
  - jjwiseman 5y ago
    There's evidence that the vaccines give better protection than natural infection. There's also evidence that being infected and then being vaccinated gives better protection than either one by itself. Additionally, this isn't how public health works. Vaccines are a level of protection that is easy to standardize and operationalize. We don't let schoolchildren skip getting the chickenpox vaccine if they've already had chickenpox.
iammisc 5y ago
> Or a software engineer that didn't believe in binary If using binary may incur a chance of heart failure and blood clots, yes, I'd be sure to hire a software engineer who didn't do that.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  A better comparison would be a software engineer who refuses to patch his out-of-date operating system because he's "not sure what the updates will do".
  - beerandt 5y ago
    As opposed to installing every published patch, without internal testing, whether the patch is needed/applicable, or not?
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Without realizing it, you're criticizing debian's release methodology without realizing why people use debian. There is often good reason not to just patch things willy-nilly. Patches that are easy and allay obvious safety concerns yes. But being a little bit behind bleeding edge is a good thing.
    - lamontcg 5y ago
      The virus is a zero day unauthenticated remote code exploit against postfix. Dunno how we're so far into this thing and people don't get that yet.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  How about unvaccinated staff pose a risk to patients who are in the hospital and likely immunocompromised? I agree if they fired people wfh that was stupid, but for doctors and nurses? Yeah they are a liability for other patients.
  - iammisc 5y ago
bobthechef 5y ago
Very poor comparison that misrepresents their motives. None of these people opposes vaccines. They either don't accept THIS vaccine, esp. how politicized it has become, and they don't accept being force do take it.
- orf 5y ago
  Who politicised it and why? And when you say THIS vaccine, which one?
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Kamala Harris and Joe Biden, who unequivocally stated, they would not take a vaccine under Donald Trump. As well as a handful of west coast states who decided the previous administration's FDA was not satisfactory to grant permission to use the drug and enacted their own state bureaucracies. Don't even try to gaslight this one. This was the first vaccine skepticism. Things don't change just because your party is in charge. After 2020, I can't take the gaslighting anymore. Stop it. EDIT; downvoted for pointing out the first national politicians to call into question the vaccine's efficacy before their flip flop. Keep rewriting history guys. Did you learn that working for Jeff Bezos? EDIT: Oh looky... now I'm flagged!
    - literallyaduck 5y ago
      Got any links from reputable sources for those claims?
      - iammisc 5y ago
        https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/ar-BB19O9k4 https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/kamala-harris-s... https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe-biden-kamala-harris-led-covid-vaccine-skepticism-parade-before-election-1105376/ https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe... (listen to the video) https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-to-join-california-forindependent-review-any-covid-19-vaccine-approved-by-fda/ar-BB1arIZI https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-to-join-california-... I'm not making this up. This is mainstream news or primary sources. EDIT: Donald Trump has been quite clear about the utility of the vaccine and proud of its development and availability under his administration. If you haven't seen these before, and didn't know this until now, despite this having been one year ago, ask yourself why? Is it because you were fed a particular narrative?
literallyaduck 5y ago
I'd say this is more akin to taking a software beta. Prior to a few months ago it was still experimental and in alpha. The software was rushed to market and you have no recourse if it bricks your system. The vaccine mandate is similar to forcing only trusted users on your network. Now you have created a catch 22 because any dissenters have been removed from the health care system. Don't take this as a request not to be vaccinated, but rushing has created some very bad problems in the past: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-depth/thalidomide/art-20046534 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-dep...
Maursault 5y ago
> Would you hire... a software engineer that didn't believe in binary? Though unary is quite sufficient, it really depends upon whether they are legally licensed to practice software engineering. Believing or not believing in numbers or numbering systens, which are ideas with no tangible existence, can not be a criteria for employment because federal law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Act) and the laws of most states prohibit employers from engaging in religious discrimination.[1] [1] https://www.cantorsparadise.com/why-mathematics-isnt-much-different-from-religion-419ecb652724 https://www.cantorsparadise.com/why-mathematics-isnt-much-di...

That's a pretty poor analogy. Nails are often the right and often the wrong tool for different circumstances. And there are different kinds of nails. Lots of carpenters have preferences for what types of hardware they use - based on their own experience and that of experience from others. And even if I disagreed with a carpenter on what tools were right for any given particular circumstance, it would be silly to try to micromanage them doing their job - just let them do their work!

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
I can see "nails vs screws" ending in a brawl if enough alcohol is served beforehand. The first punch would probably be thrown after the clipboard warrior makes some quip about dovetails and other "fastener free" joints and gets everyone riled up.
- rwcarlsen 5y ago
  I'm a draw-bored mortise and tenon guy myself.
AdamHominem 5y ago
But if an expert in fasteners says "use this nail/bolt, made of this material and grade, for this application"...and then Joe Roofer says "WELL I actually work on roofs unlike those ivory tower mechanical and structural engineers, I'll use what I think is best" and then years later a couple people get killed... There are a lot of infamous incidents caused by people thinking they know better than the people who designed stuff and actually had training, experience, and education in that field. Doing things like changing fastener grades, or styles, or completely changing how something is put together. The most ready example I can think of is the hotel bridge collapse that killed a couple dozen people, because some mouth-breather thought he knew better than the structural engineers that drew up plans on how to anchor the bridge to its overhead supports. Virtually nobody at a hospital is qualified to second-guess vaccines, and the people who do are people I don't want anywhere near patient care because they're going to second-guess other experts, like the doctors they work with, the instructions for equipment and drugs, etc.
- iammisc 5y ago
  Would you listen to an expert doctor who didn't wash his hands before childbirth or a old wive's tail midwife? BEcause this is an actual life and death scenario, and history doesn't look well on the 'experts'. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/375663920/the-doctor-who-championed-hand-washing-and-saved-women-s-lives https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/3756639...
- dudeofea 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge#First_design_and_collapse_of_August_29,_1907 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge#First_design_and...
- tzs 5y ago
  > Virtually nobody at a hospital is qualified to second-guess vaccines ...and the people in the hospital are also in a great position to verify that (1) vaccines work. Let P(H|V) be the probability that had outcome H happens if you are vaccinated, and let P(H|~V) be the probability of that had outcome when you are not vaccinated. Then P(H|V) / P(H|~V) = P(~V) / P(V) x P(V|H) / P(~V|H) where P(V|H) is the probability that someone with outcome H was vaccinated, and P(~V|H) is the probability that someone with outcome H was not vaccinated. All they need to do is look at their patients that have outcome H (such as being hospitalized, or dying) and count how many were vaccinated and how many were not, find out the vaccination rate of the community their patients came from, and they can calculate P(H|V) / P(H|~V) which is how much vaccination reduces your chances of H. For example, if 70% of the people in your community are vaccinated, and you have 50 people who died from COVID in the last month, 5 vaccinated and 45 not vaccinated, you'd get that P(H|V) / P(H|~V) = 0.048. Vaccination is reducing a person's chances of dying by 95%. So even if they don't want to just trust the experts they can see for themselves that the experts are telling the truth.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    Or for people who want their math in pie chart form https://twitter.com/simondotau/status/1444537141413888003 https://twitter.com/simondotau/status/1444537141413888003

rajin444 5y ago

Unfortunately vaccine efficacy is something almost nobody can verify on their own so trust is required. The real question is: why do you trust people that they don't?

MarkLowenstein 5y ago

They're probably like me. I know the vaccine helps. I also know that I have near-zero risk from COVID. So I don't get the vaccine because I don't like injecting unnecessary stuff in there.

jaas 5y ago
It’s not all about you. Unvaccinated people are more likely to infect others. Stop being selfish and get vaccinated.
- sdjfhsdkfhlskjh 5y ago
  >It’s not all about you... >Stop being selfish and... His body his choice.
  - staplers 5y ago
    Healthcare providers choice to fire their employees.
    - TacticalCoder 5y ago
      Even some who got tested positive in the past and who have better immunity than most of the vaccinated ones...
bigodbiel 5y ago
Or they got it already, and equally or better protected than by vaccination.
- jjwiseman 5y ago
  There's evidence that the vaccines give better protection than natural infection. There's also evidence that being infected and then being vaccinated gives better protection than either one by itself. Additionally, this isn't how public health works. Vaccines are a level of protection that is easy to standardize and operationalize. We don't let schoolchildren skip getting the chickenpox vaccine if they've already had chickenpox.

iammisc 5y ago

> Or a software engineer that didn't believe in binary If using binary may incur a chance of heart failure and blood clots, yes, I'd be sure to hire a software engineer who didn't do that.

stickfigure 5y ago
A better comparison would be a software engineer who refuses to patch his out-of-date operating system because he's "not sure what the updates will do".
- beerandt 5y ago
  As opposed to installing every published patch, without internal testing, whether the patch is needed/applicable, or not?
- iammisc 5y ago
  Without realizing it, you're criticizing debian's release methodology without realizing why people use debian. There is often good reason not to just patch things willy-nilly. Patches that are easy and allay obvious safety concerns yes. But being a little bit behind bleeding edge is a good thing.
  - lamontcg 5y ago
    The virus is a zero day unauthenticated remote code exploit against postfix. Dunno how we're so far into this thing and people don't get that yet.
aaomidi 5y ago
How about unvaccinated staff pose a risk to patients who are in the hospital and likely immunocompromised? I agree if they fired people wfh that was stupid, but for doctors and nurses? Yeah they are a liability for other patients.
- iammisc 5y ago

bobthechef 5y ago

Very poor comparison that misrepresents their motives. None of these people opposes vaccines. They either don't accept THIS vaccine, esp. how politicized it has become, and they don't accept being force do take it.

orf 5y ago
Who politicised it and why? And when you say THIS vaccine, which one?
- iammisc 5y ago
  Kamala Harris and Joe Biden, who unequivocally stated, they would not take a vaccine under Donald Trump. As well as a handful of west coast states who decided the previous administration's FDA was not satisfactory to grant permission to use the drug and enacted their own state bureaucracies. Don't even try to gaslight this one. This was the first vaccine skepticism. Things don't change just because your party is in charge. After 2020, I can't take the gaslighting anymore. Stop it. EDIT; downvoted for pointing out the first national politicians to call into question the vaccine's efficacy before their flip flop. Keep rewriting history guys. Did you learn that working for Jeff Bezos? EDIT: Oh looky... now I'm flagged!
  - literallyaduck 5y ago
    Got any links from reputable sources for those claims?
    - iammisc 5y ago
      https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/ar-BB19O9k4 https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/kamala-harris-s... https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe-biden-kamala-harris-led-covid-vaccine-skepticism-parade-before-election-1105376/ https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe... (listen to the video) https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-to-join-california-forindependent-review-any-covid-19-vaccine-approved-by-fda/ar-BB1arIZI https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-to-join-california-... I'm not making this up. This is mainstream news or primary sources. EDIT: Donald Trump has been quite clear about the utility of the vaccine and proud of its development and availability under his administration. If you haven't seen these before, and didn't know this until now, despite this having been one year ago, ask yourself why? Is it because you were fed a particular narrative?

literallyaduck 5y ago

I'd say this is more akin to taking a software beta. Prior to a few months ago it was still experimental and in alpha. The software was rushed to market and you have no recourse if it bricks your system. The vaccine mandate is similar to forcing only trusted users on your network. Now you have created a catch 22 because any dissenters have been removed from the health care system. Don't take this as a request not to be vaccinated, but rushing has created some very bad problems in the past: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-depth/thalidomide/art-20046534 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-dep...

Maursault 5y ago

> Would you hire... a software engineer that didn't believe in binary? Though unary is quite sufficient, it really depends upon whether they are legally licensed to practice software engineering. Believing or not believing in numbers or numbering systens, which are ideas with no tangible existence, can not be a criteria for employment because federal law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Act) and the laws of most states prohibit employers from engaging in religious discrimination.[1] [1] https://www.cantorsparadise.com/why-mathematics-isnt-much-different-from-religion-419ecb652724 https://www.cantorsparadise.com/why-mathematics-isnt-much-di...