6 ms·

Where is the discussion about the fact that a very large fraction of these employees likely already had far superior natural immunity - which is provable. So t

Where is the discussion about the fact that a very large fraction of these employees likely already had far superior natural immunity - which is provable. So they were fired for refusing to undergo what amounts to an unnecessary medical procedure. And these vaccines are non-sterilizing - so it's not like other vaccinations that are routinely required in other public health contexts.

lrnyc21 5y ago
To be in certain healthcare settings you’re often required to be vaccinated against some diseases e.g. if you’re going to be part of surgeries you need to get a TB vaccine. That’s a public health measure and this is no different.
Cerealkiller050 5y ago
This is the one thing I just don't get. I check the news everyday to see if the U.S. government has clarified the natural immunity part. The amount of research on it seems good, and other countries already acknowledge it and use it. Why??
- tastyfreeze 5y ago
  The only reasoning that makes sense at this point is that the US Government doesn't care if you have natural immunity. They want you to do as they say or suffer.
bastawhiz 5y ago
"Provably" is doing a lot of work here. Could they screen each of the employees for immunity? Yes. And the cost of that would be high, and you wouldn't get results back for two weeks or more. And, natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity[0], so it's _not_ unnecessary. Hybrid immunity is "provably" better than natural immunity alone. 0: [edit: not from the delta variant]
- rwcarlsen 5y ago
  This is actually false and contradicts findings from several very reputable and large studies. See e.g. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
  - bastawhiz 5y ago
    > Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant. Did you read your own link?
    - rwcarlsen 5y ago
      Yes - infected+vaccinated is more protected than infected. But infected is way more protected than vaccinated only. If your position is that everyone should meet the highest standard of infected+vaccinated - which is only marginally better than just being infected - then we should be mandating mandatory covid infection. But if your position is that vaccination alone provides acceptable protection, then infection alone already far far surpasses that in both lasting immunity and total efficacy. [edit] Here is an excerpt from their conclusion: "This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."
      - bastawhiz 5y ago
        > But infected is way more protected than vaccinated only. For the Pfizer vaccine, against the Delta variant specifically. > If your position is that everyone should meet the highest standard of infected+vaccinated - which is only marginally better than just being infected - then we should be mandating mandatory covid infection. But if your position is that vaccination alone provides acceptable protection, then infection alone already far far surpasses that in both lasting immunity and total efficacy. This is an absurd argument to make. There's no ethical argument to infect people. And the absolute material difference between vaccinated and natural immunity is literally dozens out of a population of over 600,000. Natural immunity might be "way more protected" but that's speaking in relative terms.
tomrod 5y ago
Flu vaccine is not sterilizing and commonly required required by employers.
nojito 5y ago
Many healthcare organizations require flu shots these days.
munk-a 5y ago
Vaccines are still beneficial and the more complicated the rules get the harder the administration of them becomes. Everyone[1] can, without any cost to themselves either monetarily or health-wise, go out and get a vaccine - if you suffered from COVID I'm sorry that you'll have long COVID systems but you'll also be supervaccinated at that point - which is even better! 1. With a few very very specific exceptions that should be respected.
- rwcarlsen 5y ago
  "because it's inconvenient" seems like a pretty poor precedent to set for governments mandating (unnecessary) medical procedures.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    Nah - the reason mandates are emerging is because people are acting irresponsibly and prolonging an event that's causing extreme amounts of economic damage. We want to get through this so that the country can return to normal economic activity. The reason the mandates are so sweeping is because Americans are intensely litigious and making them targeted would potentially run afoul of all sorts of laws like the ADA.
    - rwcarlsen 5y ago
      From my evaluation and research, nearly all the economic damage is being caused by said mitigations - not the virus or pandemic itself. So... stop doing the things that damage the economy? People want to work. People want to travel. People want to play. Let. Them. Do. It. A few are fearful and want to hide - that's fine too.
      - munk-a 5y ago
        These mitigations wouldn't be in place if there wasn't a pandemic on - the faster we can solve that the faster we can open things up again. And this problem might be unsolvable - if that's the case then the vaccine mandates (which do lower risk) will probably become as set in stone as MMR shots which, if you went to school in America, you almost certainly got.

lrnyc21 5y ago

To be in certain healthcare settings you’re often required to be vaccinated against some diseases e.g. if you’re going to be part of surgeries you need to get a TB vaccine. That’s a public health measure and this is no different.

Cerealkiller050 5y ago

This is the one thing I just don't get. I check the news everyday to see if the U.S. government has clarified the natural immunity part. The amount of research on it seems good, and other countries already acknowledge it and use it. Why??

tastyfreeze 5y ago
The only reasoning that makes sense at this point is that the US Government doesn't care if you have natural immunity. They want you to do as they say or suffer.

bastawhiz 5y ago

"Provably" is doing a lot of work here. Could they screen each of the employees for immunity? Yes. And the cost of that would be high, and you wouldn't get results back for two weeks or more. And, natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity[0], so it's _not_ unnecessary. Hybrid immunity is "provably" better than natural immunity alone. 0: [edit: not from the delta variant]

rwcarlsen 5y ago
This is actually false and contradicts findings from several very reputable and large studies. See e.g. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
- bastawhiz 5y ago
  > Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant. Did you read your own link?
  - rwcarlsen 5y ago
    Yes - infected+vaccinated is more protected than infected. But infected is way more protected than vaccinated only. If your position is that everyone should meet the highest standard of infected+vaccinated - which is only marginally better than just being infected - then we should be mandating mandatory covid infection. But if your position is that vaccination alone provides acceptable protection, then infection alone already far far surpasses that in both lasting immunity and total efficacy. [edit] Here is an excerpt from their conclusion: "This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."
    - bastawhiz 5y ago
      > But infected is way more protected than vaccinated only. For the Pfizer vaccine, against the Delta variant specifically. > If your position is that everyone should meet the highest standard of infected+vaccinated - which is only marginally better than just being infected - then we should be mandating mandatory covid infection. But if your position is that vaccination alone provides acceptable protection, then infection alone already far far surpasses that in both lasting immunity and total efficacy. This is an absurd argument to make. There's no ethical argument to infect people. And the absolute material difference between vaccinated and natural immunity is literally dozens out of a population of over 600,000. Natural immunity might be "way more protected" but that's speaking in relative terms.

tomrod 5y ago

Flu vaccine is not sterilizing and commonly required required by employers.

nojito 5y ago

Many healthcare organizations require flu shots these days.

munk-a 5y ago

Vaccines are still beneficial and the more complicated the rules get the harder the administration of them becomes. Everyone[1] can, without any cost to themselves either monetarily or health-wise, go out and get a vaccine - if you suffered from COVID I'm sorry that you'll have long COVID systems but you'll also be supervaccinated at that point - which is even better! 1. With a few very very specific exceptions that should be respected.

rwcarlsen 5y ago
"because it's inconvenient" seems like a pretty poor precedent to set for governments mandating (unnecessary) medical procedures.
- munk-a 5y ago
  Nah - the reason mandates are emerging is because people are acting irresponsibly and prolonging an event that's causing extreme amounts of economic damage. We want to get through this so that the country can return to normal economic activity. The reason the mandates are so sweeping is because Americans are intensely litigious and making them targeted would potentially run afoul of all sorts of laws like the ADA.
  - rwcarlsen 5y ago
    From my evaluation and research, nearly all the economic damage is being caused by said mitigations - not the virus or pandemic itself. So... stop doing the things that damage the economy? People want to work. People want to travel. People want to play. Let. Them. Do. It. A few are fearful and want to hide - that's fine too.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      These mitigations wouldn't be in place if there wasn't a pandemic on - the faster we can solve that the faster we can open things up again. And this problem might be unsolvable - if that's the case then the vaccine mandates (which do lower risk) will probably become as set in stone as MMR shots which, if you went to school in America, you almost certainly got.