4 ms·

>"Give up replaceable components and buy entire SoCs for all of your upgrades. Also forget about incremental upgrades" I used to think like that - until I anal

by EricE 5y ago

>"Give up replaceable components and buy entire SoCs for all of your upgrades. Also forget about incremental upgrades" I used to think like that - until I analyzed all my PC builds over the last 12 years and realized with Intel changing sockets every generation the whole incremental upgrade thing was fond memories from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. Once I realized incremental upgrades wasn't a hill worth dying on my choices increased and I've never been happier with the size/weight/speed/battery life that previous dogma prevented me from even evaluating. >We could also stop writing shit software. We could but people don't. Sentiments often don't survive contact with reality :p

nebula8804 5y ago
My thoughts exactly. I don't know if this person has actually experienced the M1 in a thorough sense but my suspicion is probably no. To this day there still exists a cadre who think Apple users are idiots for spending so much money on a computer. Many of them have not seriously taken a look at what the platform offers and they do not fully comprehend why people choose this platform over others. Regarding the "We could also stop writing shit software." quote, it seems as if there has been a wave of optimization over the last decade just out of necessity. (electron notwithstanding) It is not enough, components that are written in fast languages such as the OS have generally gotten slower. We are forced to upgrade due to security and I don't see any incentive for companies to improve this part of the software stack. You can use other desktop apps that are faster but you only really have 2-3 choices in OS and that dictates everything else you can do with your computer. Was running Windows 11 on the Parallels Desktop on M1 and it seems snappy but not as snappy as MacOS. I noticed this same behavior on Windows 10 running on a core i7. It seems as if the design of the OS has some bloat that I cannot explain clearly but can definitely feel. We should consider that maybe Apple has been also optimizing software to be more performant.
- novok 5y ago
  M1 snappiness partly comes from the efficiency cores and a better QoS algo. x86 could start adding effiency cores and do similar kinds of scheduling to get some of the benefits.
  - shadilay 5y ago
    >Efficiency cores Alder Lake 2022.
    - EricE 5y ago
      Great - there's half of the solution - hardware. Got the software to integrate and leverage it to the hilt too?
- handrous 5y ago
  > We should consider that maybe Apple has been also optimizing software to be more performant. They absolutely do. You can see it in all their bundled programs, too (except Xcode... sigh). Safari, Pages/Numbers/Keynote, Preview, Maps. All snappy and light on resources. None of them prone to slowing down unrelated things on your system. You can leave them open in the background for weeks and forget they're there. There's also iOS and Android. Android's gotten better, but it's always needed more energy and faster hardware to approach iOS performance and UI responsiveness. The software's simply better, by that metric, anyway. Another instance of this was visible in BeOS vs. Windows/Linux, back in the day. The difference was not subtle and was present even when running cross-platform programs, so it must have been BeOS itself (and its libraries, SDK, et c.) responsible for everything feeling way faster and more responsive.
  - dwaite 5y ago
    > There's also iOS and Android. Android's gotten better, but it's always needed more energy and faster hardware to approach iOS performance and UI responsiveness. The software's simply better, by that metric, anyway. A significant portion of this is just requiring more efficient developer tools. - Generational GC vs ARC memory management accounts for a large (50-100%) increase in memory usage - JIT vs compiled code performance impacts - Swift value types vs Java (and Objc) class types removes further memory management pressure as well as allowing for significant memory savings. - The underlying OS model Apple has restricts the need to run code from multiple applications at one time to a small set of extension points. Android does allow for background processing (although you can't guarantee consistent/persistent processes). Of course you give all this up when you are just wrapping your javascript + web content up in an electron or similar framework. In that case, you are running at a fraction of the efficiency of either platform.
novok 5y ago
I mostly miss the ability to add or replace defective storage modules, and the ability to add more onboard storage to things like mac minis. External storage sucks in many ways, from desk clutter, unreliability from jostling cables damaging themselves and ports and extra expense. Especially in today's age of small M.2 drives. Even the pro laptops could use some storage slots for media professionals so you don't see goofy ass shit such as velcroed SSDs on macbook screens, which is is a thing I've seen video professionals do sometimes. Hardwired storage is horrible from a data recovery standpoint also, you should be able to take our your storage chip and try to recover data from it in a standalone fashion as long as you know the encryption key, even if your main board or CPU has been damaged. Their storage and RAM prices being double the market price is also irritating.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  Cloud storage is kinda cheaper if you look at iPhones
shadilay 5y ago
How often are you replacing your PSU? Every time Intel changes socket?
- fiddlerwoaroof 5y ago
  I only replaced PSUs on my MacBooks when Apple switched from MagSafe to USB-C.
handrous 5y ago
> I used to think like that - until I analyzed all my PC builds over the last 12 years and realized with Intel changing sockets every generation the whole incremental upgrade thing was fond memories from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. Once I realized incremental upgrades wasn't a hill worth dying on my choices increased and I've never been happier with the size/weight/speed/battery life that previous dogma prevented me from even evaluating. Yep. I still have desktop machines and build another every 4 years or so. I used to upgrade machines, but it's just not realistic anymore. If I'm very lucky I'll manage to reuse the case and power supply, but even that's iffy. Stuff's changing too fast, including, as you mentioned, processor sockets. Memory, too. Man, I had some memory in the 2000s that lived through like 3 different machines. Not these days. If I upgraded video cards more often I guess I might manage to do that once per machine, but that'd be it.
ohgodplsno 5y ago
Just because you keep falling for the Intel scam doesn't mean we all do. My current build has components dating from 2012, and I've been able to upgrade my Ryzen easily. Previous build made use of an LGA 1155, and still reused components from a previous build. I have hard drives from 2012 in my machine, and should I have the space for it, some 2009 drives would have been in it. Buying entire new computers is the most wasteful thing you could do, both money wise and environmentally wise.
Olreich 5y ago
I’ve upgraded piecemeal several times this decade. Harddrives-> Sata SSD -> NVMe SSD. The power supply, fans, and case are all 10 years old and continue to be great. I’ve upgraded the graphics card 4 times, and the CPU/MoBo twice. I’ve upgraded or extended the RAM three times. There is definitely value in SOC for CPU/MoBo (maybe memory), but the other components work better upgrading at different rates.
hajile 5y ago
You should give AMD a try. They've been on the same couple sockets for a long time now.

by EricE 5y ago

nebula8804 5y ago

My thoughts exactly. I don't know if this person has actually experienced the M1 in a thorough sense but my suspicion is probably no. To this day there still exists a cadre who think Apple users are idiots for spending so much money on a computer. Many of them have not seriously taken a look at what the platform offers and they do not fully comprehend why people choose this platform over others. Regarding the "We could also stop writing shit software." quote, it seems as if there has been a wave of optimization over the last decade just out of necessity. (electron notwithstanding) It is not enough, components that are written in fast languages such as the OS have generally gotten slower. We are forced to upgrade due to security and I don't see any incentive for companies to improve this part of the software stack. You can use other desktop apps that are faster but you only really have 2-3 choices in OS and that dictates everything else you can do with your computer. Was running Windows 11 on the Parallels Desktop on M1 and it seems snappy but not as snappy as MacOS. I noticed this same behavior on Windows 10 running on a core i7. It seems as if the design of the OS has some bloat that I cannot explain clearly but can definitely feel. We should consider that maybe Apple has been also optimizing software to be more performant.

novok 5y ago
M1 snappiness partly comes from the efficiency cores and a better QoS algo. x86 could start adding effiency cores and do similar kinds of scheduling to get some of the benefits.
- shadilay 5y ago
  >Efficiency cores Alder Lake 2022.
  - EricE 5y ago
    Great - there's half of the solution - hardware. Got the software to integrate and leverage it to the hilt too?
handrous 5y ago
> We should consider that maybe Apple has been also optimizing software to be more performant. They absolutely do. You can see it in all their bundled programs, too (except Xcode... sigh). Safari, Pages/Numbers/Keynote, Preview, Maps. All snappy and light on resources. None of them prone to slowing down unrelated things on your system. You can leave them open in the background for weeks and forget they're there. There's also iOS and Android. Android's gotten better, but it's always needed more energy and faster hardware to approach iOS performance and UI responsiveness. The software's simply better, by that metric, anyway. Another instance of this was visible in BeOS vs. Windows/Linux, back in the day. The difference was not subtle and was present even when running cross-platform programs, so it must have been BeOS itself (and its libraries, SDK, et c.) responsible for everything feeling way faster and more responsive.
- dwaite 5y ago
  > There's also iOS and Android. Android's gotten better, but it's always needed more energy and faster hardware to approach iOS performance and UI responsiveness. The software's simply better, by that metric, anyway. A significant portion of this is just requiring more efficient developer tools. - Generational GC vs ARC memory management accounts for a large (50-100%) increase in memory usage - JIT vs compiled code performance impacts - Swift value types vs Java (and Objc) class types removes further memory management pressure as well as allowing for significant memory savings. - The underlying OS model Apple has restricts the need to run code from multiple applications at one time to a small set of extension points. Android does allow for background processing (although you can't guarantee consistent/persistent processes). Of course you give all this up when you are just wrapping your javascript + web content up in an electron or similar framework. In that case, you are running at a fraction of the efficiency of either platform.

novok 5y ago

I mostly miss the ability to add or replace defective storage modules, and the ability to add more onboard storage to things like mac minis. External storage sucks in many ways, from desk clutter, unreliability from jostling cables damaging themselves and ports and extra expense. Especially in today's age of small M.2 drives. Even the pro laptops could use some storage slots for media professionals so you don't see goofy ass shit such as velcroed SSDs on macbook screens, which is is a thing I've seen video professionals do sometimes. Hardwired storage is horrible from a data recovery standpoint also, you should be able to take our your storage chip and try to recover data from it in a standalone fashion as long as you know the encryption key, even if your main board or CPU has been damaged. Their storage and RAM prices being double the market price is also irritating.

dzhiurgis 5y ago
Cloud storage is kinda cheaper if you look at iPhones

shadilay 5y ago

How often are you replacing your PSU? Every time Intel changes socket?

fiddlerwoaroof 5y ago
I only replaced PSUs on my MacBooks when Apple switched from MagSafe to USB-C.

handrous 5y ago

> I used to think like that - until I analyzed all my PC builds over the last 12 years and realized with Intel changing sockets every generation the whole incremental upgrade thing was fond memories from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. Once I realized incremental upgrades wasn't a hill worth dying on my choices increased and I've never been happier with the size/weight/speed/battery life that previous dogma prevented me from even evaluating. Yep. I still have desktop machines and build another every 4 years or so. I used to upgrade machines, but it's just not realistic anymore. If I'm very lucky I'll manage to reuse the case and power supply, but even that's iffy. Stuff's changing too fast, including, as you mentioned, processor sockets. Memory, too. Man, I had some memory in the 2000s that lived through like 3 different machines. Not these days. If I upgraded video cards more often I guess I might manage to do that once per machine, but that'd be it.

ohgodplsno 5y ago

Just because you keep falling for the Intel scam doesn't mean we all do. My current build has components dating from 2012, and I've been able to upgrade my Ryzen easily. Previous build made use of an LGA 1155, and still reused components from a previous build. I have hard drives from 2012 in my machine, and should I have the space for it, some 2009 drives would have been in it. Buying entire new computers is the most wasteful thing you could do, both money wise and environmentally wise.

Olreich 5y ago

I’ve upgraded piecemeal several times this decade. Harddrives-> Sata SSD -> NVMe SSD. The power supply, fans, and case are all 10 years old and continue to be great. I’ve upgraded the graphics card 4 times, and the CPU/MoBo twice. I’ve upgraded or extended the RAM three times. There is definitely value in SOC for CPU/MoBo (maybe memory), but the other components work better upgrading at different rates.

hajile 5y ago

You should give AMD a try. They've been on the same couple sockets for a long time now.