3 ms·

> Fair, although you could opt out of the phone book. (And I don't think they had location/address, though it's been so long now that I can't remember for sure.

> Fair, although you could opt out of the phone book. (And I don't think they had location/address, though it's been so long now that I can't remember for sure.) you can opt out of Facebook too... and Irish phone books had addresses...

_moof 5y ago
It's not just Facebook. Your phone is tattling on you 24/7. ALPRs are recording where you drive. Browser fingerprinting is creating a profile on you even if you block ads and trackers. Short of never using a computer, there is no opt out anymore.
- mitchitized 5y ago
  "Ooh, lookit that funny car over there!" - points phone almost at your face, takes picture - uploads picture to Facebook You'd literally have to have the kind of Momma that would dig a hole and hide you in it at birth to really be "off the grid" at this point.
- admax88qqq 5y ago
  That's a little different thought and I think you know it. There's a difference between information that government and big tech is scraping and storing, vs information that is publicly available to literally any random person online to scrape. Both are problems, but those are different discussions and we started with talking about the issue of truly publicly available information. I think that's an interesting topic that merits its own discussion without falling into the surveillance discussion once again.
  - _moof 5y ago
    A little different, yes, but what I'm saying is that it's not substantially different. Once data is collected, it won't be uncollected, and all it takes is one hack to permanently turn a private database into a public one. And the data that's being collected in these private databases is often justified on the grounds that it's not private information--i.e., if you're outside, you have no expectation of privacy. So in that sense it is "truly public" information. But what I'm saying is that the meaning of public/private has fundamentally changed because of the kind of differences of scale we're talking about here. In other words, there was a degree of implicit privacy afforded by the level of effort required to catalog and search "public" data. Whether that data comes from public or private databases is, I think, not particularly relevant.
    - admax88qqq 5y ago
      Sure, yes, I don't disagree with what your saying. It's just that corporate surveillance is like the favourite topic on HN right now. Almost every topic gets shifted to being yet another debate about corporate surveillance. There is an interesting discussion to be had about what it means for information to be public, since public information is also now _searchable_ information, which never used to be the case. What are the implications for that when it comes to laws about what constitutes "public" information, and social norms on what we share publicly. But once again instead of discussing that conversation, we're dragged back into the corporate and government surveillance, yet again.
  - debaserab2 5y ago
    The former can become the latter pretty easily though and without any consent through both illegal (hacking) and legal (company acquisition) ways. Corporate surveillance very much is a part of the problem and you can't talk about one without talking about the other.
reaperducer 5y ago
you can opt out of Facebook too This is not true. Facebook builds profiles about millions of people who have never had a Facebook account. For example, people who happened to be in the background of a photograph taken by a stranger. Another example: people who installed an app on their phone without knowing that it included a Facebook SDK that was tracking them. This is nothing new. It's been discussed in public, and even before the U.S. congress. Personally, I'd love to opt out of Facebook. But I can't. Because I can't log in to my Facebook account, and Facebook ignores my requests for access. I even did the "send in a picture of your government ID" route, and nothing happened. So please inform me how I can opt out of Facebook's data gathering.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Yes, shadow profiles exist and really show how shallow Facebook's promises of privacy are: https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/11/17225482/facebook-shadow-profiles-zuckerberg-congress-data-privacy https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/11/17225482/facebook-shadow-...

_moof 5y ago

It's not just Facebook. Your phone is tattling on you 24/7. ALPRs are recording where you drive. Browser fingerprinting is creating a profile on you even if you block ads and trackers. Short of never using a computer, there is no opt out anymore.

mitchitized 5y ago
"Ooh, lookit that funny car over there!" - points phone almost at your face, takes picture - uploads picture to Facebook You'd literally have to have the kind of Momma that would dig a hole and hide you in it at birth to really be "off the grid" at this point.
admax88qqq 5y ago
That's a little different thought and I think you know it. There's a difference between information that government and big tech is scraping and storing, vs information that is publicly available to literally any random person online to scrape. Both are problems, but those are different discussions and we started with talking about the issue of truly publicly available information. I think that's an interesting topic that merits its own discussion without falling into the surveillance discussion once again.
- _moof 5y ago
  A little different, yes, but what I'm saying is that it's not substantially different. Once data is collected, it won't be uncollected, and all it takes is one hack to permanently turn a private database into a public one. And the data that's being collected in these private databases is often justified on the grounds that it's not private information--i.e., if you're outside, you have no expectation of privacy. So in that sense it is "truly public" information. But what I'm saying is that the meaning of public/private has fundamentally changed because of the kind of differences of scale we're talking about here. In other words, there was a degree of implicit privacy afforded by the level of effort required to catalog and search "public" data. Whether that data comes from public or private databases is, I think, not particularly relevant.
  - admax88qqq 5y ago
    Sure, yes, I don't disagree with what your saying. It's just that corporate surveillance is like the favourite topic on HN right now. Almost every topic gets shifted to being yet another debate about corporate surveillance. There is an interesting discussion to be had about what it means for information to be public, since public information is also now _searchable_ information, which never used to be the case. What are the implications for that when it comes to laws about what constitutes "public" information, and social norms on what we share publicly. But once again instead of discussing that conversation, we're dragged back into the corporate and government surveillance, yet again.
- debaserab2 5y ago
  The former can become the latter pretty easily though and without any consent through both illegal (hacking) and legal (company acquisition) ways. Corporate surveillance very much is a part of the problem and you can't talk about one without talking about the other.

reaperducer 5y ago

you can opt out of Facebook too This is not true. Facebook builds profiles about millions of people who have never had a Facebook account. For example, people who happened to be in the background of a photograph taken by a stranger. Another example: people who installed an app on their phone without knowing that it included a Facebook SDK that was tracking them. This is nothing new. It's been discussed in public, and even before the U.S. congress. Personally, I'd love to opt out of Facebook. But I can't. Because I can't log in to my Facebook account, and Facebook ignores my requests for access. I even did the "send in a picture of your government ID" route, and nothing happened. So please inform me how I can opt out of Facebook's data gathering.

r00fus 5y ago
Yes, shadow profiles exist and really show how shallow Facebook's promises of privacy are: https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/11/17225482/facebook-shadow-profiles-zuckerberg-congress-data-privacy https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/11/17225482/facebook-shadow-...