7 ms·

Was social media ever really anything but an echo chamber that sought to recreate the mob mentality of collective lynching for dissenting voices? I mean cancel

Was social media ever really anything but an echo chamber that sought to recreate the mob mentality of collective lynching for dissenting voices? I mean cancel culture and wokeness have made it clear that seems like the means and methods to create (coerced) consensus amongst an incredibly vocal minority. I'm less troubled with conformity, many Societies throughout the World have made that a part of the Social Contract where the unity and harmony of the whole is greater than one individuals happiness. At least the reputation economy in it's current state, is mainly limited to online so you can opt out, where I think you can see how pervasively terrifying this can escalate to just look at China's Social Credit System. The guilt of association in one's social circle ensures that not just conformity is re-enforced, but that actively marginalizing those who dissent are made into 2nd class citizens as it impacts everything from access to capital/loans, employment opportunities, and travel restrictions.

100011_100001 5y ago
You make it sound like this only happens on the democratic side. Republicans have similar echo chambers. I think conformity happens within circles. Then it's a question how big the circle is. I agree with your main concern though, online vs real life credit systems.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  I am a non-American who is right of centre, and I can see "my" people adapting cancel culture tactics as well, and I resent it. IMHO such victories are rotten to the core. "Shall there be two cities of Minas Morgul, grinning at each other across a dead land filled with rottenness?" The only thing I can do about it is to interact civilly with like-minded people of totally different political persuasions and hope that others will be inspired not to enter the cesspool.
  - 100011_100001 5y ago
    I live in the States but wasn't raised here. One of the things you might not know is that unless you live in a middle east or China, right of center is left in the States.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      Plenty of people say that, but I think this is too simple to be true. You have a lot less conservative Christians in Europe (perhaps with the exception of Poland), but a lot more blatant ethnocentrist nationalists - a legacy of former decades and centuries where everyone was threatened by everyone else. (Exceptions apply.)
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
      What has happened in western countries but most dramatically in North America is that "left" vs "right" has been transformed from a strong disagreement about management of the economy to a strong disagreement about how to manage the culture. This is because in the US especially the "left" in the traditional socialist sense -- and its allies in the union movement and among students and academia -- have lost the class war. Since Clinton and Blair, there is no political space left for serious redistributive politics and the parties claiming the mantle of "left" or "social democratic" in the west have mostly given up. I'd say anti-capitalism remains strong among their base, but for all intents and purposes there is no path towards actually enacting policy... Which is why "Medicare for All" can be insanely popular in the United States across the population and voters of parties but still never ever become successful legislation. And it's also why I find it so hilarious to see right wingers talk about the "MSM" and calling things like CNN "left wing"; all the bitching about "wokeness" and griping about culture wars and so on and complaining that somehow the "left" dominates society... It's amazing because in the context of what "left" meant for most of the 20th century... the left lost. It's gone. And I say this as a strong proponent of its classic positions.
      - inglor_cz 5y ago
        Content of expressions shifts over time, especially in politics. Contemporary Pope would probably be horrified if someone suggested to him to initiate a crusade against the unbelievers. The combination of Christianity and politics has shifted over time, there is much less hard force and much more sentimentality involved. But that does not mean that Crusaders weren't true Christians while Francis I. is, or vice versa. The traditional left is gone because its proponents died out, but before they died, they introduced the young wokesters into their parties. The shift from blue collar workers to academia took decades to complete and there is a clear continuity in the process. So I think the label still fits, only the relevant institutions changed their priorities.
- a_conservative 5y ago
  Republicans do have similar echo chambers. My personal experience, as someone who has moved from left to right but still hangs out in a lot of left leaning circles, the right tends to be more tolerant of dissent. It's getting harder to remember life before the internet, but it was largely similar. Different pockets of people had different beliefs and tended to choose an echo chamber. As you said, the circles are bigger now. The other difference is that media is so less centralized now, the circles are further apart. The centralized main stream media applied a certain amount of social pressure itself that sort of kept the circles from straying to far into "forbidden thoughts". This has largely been destroyed by the internet.
  - sharikous 5y ago
    > It's getting harder to remember life before the internet, but it was largely similar. Different pockets of people had different beliefs and tended to choose an echo chamber. Before the internet, in fact, it was difficult to seek out information from outside your echo chamber. Now it is a few clicks away, even if you might prefer not to do that. > The other difference is that media is so less centralized now, the circles are further apart. I think it is questionable to say that. The mainstream part of the internet today is very much centralized. > the right tends to be more tolerant of dissent. I agree with that. I remember when the "inclusiveness" buzzword started to gain traction and I naively thought that the meaning was being welcoming to all, regardless of political opinions. Boy, I was wrong.
  - 100011_100001 5y ago
    > the right tends to be more tolerant of dissent. ...some restrictions may apply. Abortion, gay rights, immigrants, any non Christian religion; especially Muslims, policy brutality against people of color, healthcare to all, living wages the list goes on...oh and Biden actually winning the election. However, I am not trying to attack you. To give you credit, media is more extreme and biased, except for specific news outlets and sites. Of course based on your beliefs we might not agree on which ones those are.
    - a_conservative 5y ago
- Melting_Harps 5y ago
  > You make it sound like this only happens on the democratic side. Republicans have similar echo chambers. I'm not succumbing to the folly to believe that such a false paradigm (Left v Right) is anything but a dichotomy that people continue to think is separate; while wokeness may be often attributed to the Left, but I think it's clear that both sides seek the same goals which is to enforce self-censorship (University campus on Sex/Gender) or impose an archaic notion about self-ownership where the State determines what you can and cannot do to your own body (abortion). So, to be clear: I don't think their is a discernible difference between those two entities enough to make such an argument. I don't think conformity is a natural byproduct in a free and tolerant Society; what I do believe is natural and spontaneous in Nature is order, often by incentivized consensus.
OneTimePetes 5y ago
Societies with reputation economics (aka face) as the main factor, are incredibly wasteful on human resources, bad at crisis management and generally worser at innovating. Let the initial management of the Covid crisis here be a example. Its one of the established bonus points, that cultures whos mythology in indoctrination praises martyrs (e.g. Jews, Shiites, Christians) prepares its members to stand out even against resistance and thus overcome the various obstacles when it comes to leaving local minima. Reputation economics historically was a recipe for stagnant societies which succumbed sooner or later to disaster. Every year unchanged is a lucky coin toss.
- chopin 5y ago
  > Every year unchanged is a lucky coin toss. But every year changed may be as well. For example the November-revolution in Russia. There are numerous examples that change was for the worse, especially for the masses. And the Chinese or Roman empires outperformed any other quickly changing empire by far.
  - OneTimePetes 5y ago
    Did they? As far as i remember, the chinese empire was toppled by a small fast changing merchant nation on a island half way around the world. Beginning a hundred years were it was trampled by repeatedly including by another island nation nearby. The roman empire died the strangest death of all, it created such a tremendous underclass stagnant in misery (slaves, woman, all non-citizens) that a religion could basically overwrite its whole culture, erasing it from existence, without leaving behind even the technological advances.
    - chopin 5y ago
      Surely both ended - after existing longer than any empire I know of. China is on its way to become a superpower again. One could argue that the last 150 years are merely a temporary dip.
      - OneTimePetes 5y ago

100011_100001 5y ago

You make it sound like this only happens on the democratic side. Republicans have similar echo chambers. I think conformity happens within circles. Then it's a question how big the circle is. I agree with your main concern though, online vs real life credit systems.

inglor_cz 5y ago
I am a non-American who is right of centre, and I can see "my" people adapting cancel culture tactics as well, and I resent it. IMHO such victories are rotten to the core. "Shall there be two cities of Minas Morgul, grinning at each other across a dead land filled with rottenness?" The only thing I can do about it is to interact civilly with like-minded people of totally different political persuasions and hope that others will be inspired not to enter the cesspool.
- 100011_100001 5y ago
  I live in the States but wasn't raised here. One of the things you might not know is that unless you live in a middle east or China, right of center is left in the States.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Plenty of people say that, but I think this is too simple to be true. You have a lot less conservative Christians in Europe (perhaps with the exception of Poland), but a lot more blatant ethnocentrist nationalists - a legacy of former decades and centuries where everyone was threatened by everyone else. (Exceptions apply.)
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    What has happened in western countries but most dramatically in North America is that "left" vs "right" has been transformed from a strong disagreement about management of the economy to a strong disagreement about how to manage the culture. This is because in the US especially the "left" in the traditional socialist sense -- and its allies in the union movement and among students and academia -- have lost the class war. Since Clinton and Blair, there is no political space left for serious redistributive politics and the parties claiming the mantle of "left" or "social democratic" in the west have mostly given up. I'd say anti-capitalism remains strong among their base, but for all intents and purposes there is no path towards actually enacting policy... Which is why "Medicare for All" can be insanely popular in the United States across the population and voters of parties but still never ever become successful legislation. And it's also why I find it so hilarious to see right wingers talk about the "MSM" and calling things like CNN "left wing"; all the bitching about "wokeness" and griping about culture wars and so on and complaining that somehow the "left" dominates society... It's amazing because in the context of what "left" meant for most of the 20th century... the left lost. It's gone. And I say this as a strong proponent of its classic positions.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      Content of expressions shifts over time, especially in politics. Contemporary Pope would probably be horrified if someone suggested to him to initiate a crusade against the unbelievers. The combination of Christianity and politics has shifted over time, there is much less hard force and much more sentimentality involved. But that does not mean that Crusaders weren't true Christians while Francis I. is, or vice versa. The traditional left is gone because its proponents died out, but before they died, they introduced the young wokesters into their parties. The shift from blue collar workers to academia took decades to complete and there is a clear continuity in the process. So I think the label still fits, only the relevant institutions changed their priorities.
a_conservative 5y ago
Republicans do have similar echo chambers. My personal experience, as someone who has moved from left to right but still hangs out in a lot of left leaning circles, the right tends to be more tolerant of dissent. It's getting harder to remember life before the internet, but it was largely similar. Different pockets of people had different beliefs and tended to choose an echo chamber. As you said, the circles are bigger now. The other difference is that media is so less centralized now, the circles are further apart. The centralized main stream media applied a certain amount of social pressure itself that sort of kept the circles from straying to far into "forbidden thoughts". This has largely been destroyed by the internet.
- sharikous 5y ago
  > It's getting harder to remember life before the internet, but it was largely similar. Different pockets of people had different beliefs and tended to choose an echo chamber. Before the internet, in fact, it was difficult to seek out information from outside your echo chamber. Now it is a few clicks away, even if you might prefer not to do that. > The other difference is that media is so less centralized now, the circles are further apart. I think it is questionable to say that. The mainstream part of the internet today is very much centralized. > the right tends to be more tolerant of dissent. I agree with that. I remember when the "inclusiveness" buzzword started to gain traction and I naively thought that the meaning was being welcoming to all, regardless of political opinions. Boy, I was wrong.
- 100011_100001 5y ago
  > the right tends to be more tolerant of dissent. ...some restrictions may apply. Abortion, gay rights, immigrants, any non Christian religion; especially Muslims, policy brutality against people of color, healthcare to all, living wages the list goes on...oh and Biden actually winning the election. However, I am not trying to attack you. To give you credit, media is more extreme and biased, except for specific news outlets and sites. Of course based on your beliefs we might not agree on which ones those are.
  - a_conservative 5y ago
Melting_Harps 5y ago
> You make it sound like this only happens on the democratic side. Republicans have similar echo chambers. I'm not succumbing to the folly to believe that such a false paradigm (Left v Right) is anything but a dichotomy that people continue to think is separate; while wokeness may be often attributed to the Left, but I think it's clear that both sides seek the same goals which is to enforce self-censorship (University campus on Sex/Gender) or impose an archaic notion about self-ownership where the State determines what you can and cannot do to your own body (abortion). So, to be clear: I don't think their is a discernible difference between those two entities enough to make such an argument. I don't think conformity is a natural byproduct in a free and tolerant Society; what I do believe is natural and spontaneous in Nature is order, often by incentivized consensus.

OneTimePetes 5y ago

Societies with reputation economics (aka face) as the main factor, are incredibly wasteful on human resources, bad at crisis management and generally worser at innovating. Let the initial management of the Covid crisis here be a example. Its one of the established bonus points, that cultures whos mythology in indoctrination praises martyrs (e.g. Jews, Shiites, Christians) prepares its members to stand out even against resistance and thus overcome the various obstacles when it comes to leaving local minima. Reputation economics historically was a recipe for stagnant societies which succumbed sooner or later to disaster. Every year unchanged is a lucky coin toss.

chopin 5y ago
> Every year unchanged is a lucky coin toss. But every year changed may be as well. For example the November-revolution in Russia. There are numerous examples that change was for the worse, especially for the masses. And the Chinese or Roman empires outperformed any other quickly changing empire by far.
- OneTimePetes 5y ago
  Did they? As far as i remember, the chinese empire was toppled by a small fast changing merchant nation on a island half way around the world. Beginning a hundred years were it was trampled by repeatedly including by another island nation nearby. The roman empire died the strangest death of all, it created such a tremendous underclass stagnant in misery (slaves, woman, all non-citizens) that a religion could basically overwrite its whole culture, erasing it from existence, without leaving behind even the technological advances.
  - chopin 5y ago
    Surely both ended - after existing longer than any empire I know of. China is on its way to become a superpower again. One could argue that the last 150 years are merely a temporary dip.
    - OneTimePetes 5y ago