5 ms·

Who scams the scammers? Meet the scambaiters

67 points by isaacfrond 5y ago

nathanyz 5y ago
Used to deal with romance scammers a long time ago on a big dating website. We ended up with a unique solution that solved our problem quickly. Our twist on ghost banning was that they could all see and message each other. We gave them full functionality like paid accounts, just only usable to connect to other scammers. So they were in scammer hell trying to convince each other to send money due to various made up catastrophes.
- DaftDank 5y ago
  Haha this is great.
- NullPrefix 5y ago
  I assume there was enough due diligence before classifying someone as a scammer? Online dating is already pay as you go thing filled with streamer promotions and bots.
  - nathanyz 5y ago
    This was in desktop only web days before streamers and bots. But yes, we had a classification system to identify them and any close'ish calls were verified by humans before being dumped into the wasteland. There were certain patterns that were easy to identify which would guarantee they were scammers (think IP in Nigeria while claiming to be a farmer in Topeka, Kansas), while other cases needed a bit more of the human touch before making a determination.
nivenkos 5y ago
The main takeaway I see from all of this is how terrible the banks and authorities are at stopping financial crime, even with methods that are so easily traceable and reversible. They can see the transactions and identify the money mules, but law enforcement doesn't take it seriously. If cryptocurrency-fiat exchanges were banned, alongside better enforcement and monitoring of wire transfers, and more restrictions on giftcard sales - you can basically remove the ability to transfer the illicit funds internationally and remove the incentive for scamming to begin with. The same goes for following up on domain name registration details, and phone number assignment, to make it impossible to hide behind pseudo-anonymity. I remember a while back there were a load of scam Nintendo Switch sale sites, literally just opening as many as they could to gather credit card details before being shut down. Stuff like that should be tracked down and prosecuted.
- mszcz 5y ago
  > If cryptocurrency-fiat exchanges were banned I'm pretty sure scamming predates cryptocurrencies.
- klausjensen 5y ago
  "If only we take away people's freedom to buy giftcards or trade crypto, it will make it slightly more difficult to be a criminal." Too many people are so triggerhappy to take away legitimate use of some things, because "crime/terror".
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Sure, it’s a dilemma that has existed in society since the first ever victim was wronged and plotted retribution.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  >If cryptocurrency-fiat exchanges were banned The ethics of taking this freedom out of the hands of legitimate users aside, wouldn't this would just immediately lead to a black market for cryptocurrencies the same way countries with currency controls have black markets for foreign currency? The government can't even keep items as easily identified as drugs out of tightly-controlled environments like prisons, how does it expect to keep cryptocurrency out of the hands of the people? We don't need more restrictions and more bureaucracy, we need our governments to get their arse in gear and use the existing tools they have to tackle scammers and other criminals rather than their usual "remove more freedoms with a knee-jerk 'we're doing something' for the press, then do the square root of sod all to actually address the problem at hand".
- shadilay 5y ago
  I think all international payment schemes need to be insured against fraud. High insurance costs would force 3rd world countries to crack down on criminals within their borders.
haunter 5y ago
No mention of Kitboga? He is a legend doing that live on Twitch almost every day. One of the best and funniest content out there
- praash 5y ago
  That guy is developing an automated scambaiting call bot that recognizes their intent, follows the scam script with a state machine, and randomly responds with pre-recorded voice lines. The bot can also detect when the scammer speaks rudely, reacting with insults and pushing the next stage of the scam. It's just incredible. The bot has managed to fish out essential details to get the scammers' bank account reported.
  - shadilay 5y ago
    I's incredible how effective such a simple bot is. I wish ARPA would fund something like that to cut down on economic losses due to scams.
- ladyattis 5y ago
  I was wondering that myself. I love how he strings them along to the point they just start screaming at him. He doesn't say anything mean he just acts ignorant and obtuse like someone who's not computer illiterate and then some. :)
  - sumtechguy 5y ago
    What is more interesting while they interview the people and discuss the ethics of what they are doing. They do not bother to talk about how these things work? Many of them follow a pattern. Just a small bit of how it works could help educate more people.
habeebtc 5y ago
I baited some scammers like this once. Nigerian prince type scam. I led them on a merry chase for 6 weeks back in 2009. I managed to get them fighting amongst themselves, the whole group sending me angry emails, and eventually even got them to admit they were scammers under the pretense that I was a hacker for hire who could help them improve their operation. It was probably the most hilarious thing I have ever done. I still like to talk to scammers when they call, so I can figure out what the scam is all about and maybe waste some of their time. If it is a US company selling bogus car insurance or "vacation packages" (i.e. timeshare pitches), I'll keep them on long enough to to gather the necessary info for an FCC complaint. A surprising number are companies operating on the edge of legality in the US, like the aforementioned timeshare and car insurance companies. I get a lot of folks trying to get me to provide my electric utility account number, which I presume means they are running a dodgy electricity credit reseller scam of some sort: https://callmepower.com/suppliers/alternate-supplier-definition https://callmepower.com/suppliers/alternate-supplier-definit... Then there's the "support the police" calls, which always trace back to a PAC which supports Republican candidates, but which has very little evidence that any of that money ever was spent in support of those candidates. The other surprising thing: Most of these scammers know who you are, and where you live, and probably more about you which they aren't sharing. In recent years, they will hang up on me as soon as I provide a fake name. If I provide a real name, they often confirm my details with me. This last thing - that scammers have all your info when they call - you can all guess how that happens.
- e40 5y ago
  What info do you need for an FCC complaint and how do you get it?
  - habeebtc 5y ago
    See above comment. Minimum is company name, and more details about the company is helpful. Complaint form is here: https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=39744 https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?tic...
paulpauper 5y ago
Spreading awareness will not work. Too many people. And as the article says, 90% 0f the audience are young people who are not going to fall for the scam anyway. companies need to step up their fraud detection systems
i_like_apis 5y ago
IRLRosie is hilarious. Kitboga as well.
- tomcam 5y ago
  IRLRosie is also a great singer. Unusual skill stack.
  - i_like_apis 5y ago
    She is haha. Very talented. She used to do videos with her friend who is a voice coach who also has an extremely talented voice.
brightsize 5y ago
It's odd that the article doesn't seem to touch at all on the automated scambaiting systems that exist, such as the legendary Lenny: https://www.youtube.com/c/ToaoDotNet/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/ToaoDotNet/videos .
- sorokod 5y ago
  The ducks are fantastic !
kwere 5y ago
worst scammers are the one who ask if you know amazon.com and close the call when you say no :(
SirLJ 5y ago
This site always cracks me out: https://419eater.com/html/joe_eboh.htm https://419eater.com/html/joe_eboh.htm

67 points by isaacfrond 5y ago

Used to deal with romance scammers a long time ago on a big dating website. We ended up with a unique solution that solved our problem quickly. Our twist on ghost banning was that they could all see and message each other. We gave them full functionality like paid accounts, just only usable to connect to other scammers. So they were in scammer hell trying to convince each other to send money due to various made up catastrophes.

DaftDank 5y ago
Haha this is great.
NullPrefix 5y ago
I assume there was enough due diligence before classifying someone as a scammer? Online dating is already pay as you go thing filled with streamer promotions and bots.
- nathanyz 5y ago
  This was in desktop only web days before streamers and bots. But yes, we had a classification system to identify them and any close'ish calls were verified by humans before being dumped into the wasteland. There were certain patterns that were easy to identify which would guarantee they were scammers (think IP in Nigeria while claiming to be a farmer in Topeka, Kansas), while other cases needed a bit more of the human touch before making a determination.

nivenkos 5y ago

The main takeaway I see from all of this is how terrible the banks and authorities are at stopping financial crime, even with methods that are so easily traceable and reversible. They can see the transactions and identify the money mules, but law enforcement doesn't take it seriously. If cryptocurrency-fiat exchanges were banned, alongside better enforcement and monitoring of wire transfers, and more restrictions on giftcard sales - you can basically remove the ability to transfer the illicit funds internationally and remove the incentive for scamming to begin with. The same goes for following up on domain name registration details, and phone number assignment, to make it impossible to hide behind pseudo-anonymity. I remember a while back there were a load of scam Nintendo Switch sale sites, literally just opening as many as they could to gather credit card details before being shut down. Stuff like that should be tracked down and prosecuted.

mszcz 5y ago
> If cryptocurrency-fiat exchanges were banned I'm pretty sure scamming predates cryptocurrencies.
klausjensen 5y ago
"If only we take away people's freedom to buy giftcards or trade crypto, it will make it slightly more difficult to be a criminal." Too many people are so triggerhappy to take away legitimate use of some things, because "crime/terror".
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Sure, it’s a dilemma that has existed in society since the first ever victim was wronged and plotted retribution.
BoxOfRain 5y ago
>If cryptocurrency-fiat exchanges were banned The ethics of taking this freedom out of the hands of legitimate users aside, wouldn't this would just immediately lead to a black market for cryptocurrencies the same way countries with currency controls have black markets for foreign currency? The government can't even keep items as easily identified as drugs out of tightly-controlled environments like prisons, how does it expect to keep cryptocurrency out of the hands of the people? We don't need more restrictions and more bureaucracy, we need our governments to get their arse in gear and use the existing tools they have to tackle scammers and other criminals rather than their usual "remove more freedoms with a knee-jerk 'we're doing something' for the press, then do the square root of sod all to actually address the problem at hand".
shadilay 5y ago
I think all international payment schemes need to be insured against fraud. High insurance costs would force 3rd world countries to crack down on criminals within their borders.

haunter 5y ago

No mention of Kitboga? He is a legend doing that live on Twitch almost every day. One of the best and funniest content out there

praash 5y ago
That guy is developing an automated scambaiting call bot that recognizes their intent, follows the scam script with a state machine, and randomly responds with pre-recorded voice lines. The bot can also detect when the scammer speaks rudely, reacting with insults and pushing the next stage of the scam. It's just incredible. The bot has managed to fish out essential details to get the scammers' bank account reported.
- shadilay 5y ago
  I's incredible how effective such a simple bot is. I wish ARPA would fund something like that to cut down on economic losses due to scams.
ladyattis 5y ago
I was wondering that myself. I love how he strings them along to the point they just start screaming at him. He doesn't say anything mean he just acts ignorant and obtuse like someone who's not computer illiterate and then some. :)
- sumtechguy 5y ago
  What is more interesting while they interview the people and discuss the ethics of what they are doing. They do not bother to talk about how these things work? Many of them follow a pattern. Just a small bit of how it works could help educate more people.

habeebtc 5y ago

I baited some scammers like this once. Nigerian prince type scam. I led them on a merry chase for 6 weeks back in 2009. I managed to get them fighting amongst themselves, the whole group sending me angry emails, and eventually even got them to admit they were scammers under the pretense that I was a hacker for hire who could help them improve their operation. It was probably the most hilarious thing I have ever done. I still like to talk to scammers when they call, so I can figure out what the scam is all about and maybe waste some of their time. If it is a US company selling bogus car insurance or "vacation packages" (i.e. timeshare pitches), I'll keep them on long enough to to gather the necessary info for an FCC complaint. A surprising number are companies operating on the edge of legality in the US, like the aforementioned timeshare and car insurance companies. I get a lot of folks trying to get me to provide my electric utility account number, which I presume means they are running a dodgy electricity credit reseller scam of some sort: https://callmepower.com/suppliers/alternate-supplier-definition https://callmepower.com/suppliers/alternate-supplier-definit... Then there's the "support the police" calls, which always trace back to a PAC which supports Republican candidates, but which has very little evidence that any of that money ever was spent in support of those candidates. The other surprising thing: Most of these scammers know who you are, and where you live, and probably more about you which they aren't sharing. In recent years, they will hang up on me as soon as I provide a fake name. If I provide a real name, they often confirm my details with me. This last thing - that scammers have all your info when they call - you can all guess how that happens.

e40 5y ago
What info do you need for an FCC complaint and how do you get it?
- habeebtc 5y ago
  See above comment. Minimum is company name, and more details about the company is helpful. Complaint form is here: https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=39744 https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?tic...

paulpauper 5y ago

Spreading awareness will not work. Too many people. And as the article says, 90% 0f the audience are young people who are not going to fall for the scam anyway. companies need to step up their fraud detection systems

i_like_apis 5y ago

IRLRosie is hilarious. Kitboga as well.

tomcam 5y ago
IRLRosie is also a great singer. Unusual skill stack.
- i_like_apis 5y ago
  She is haha. Very talented. She used to do videos with her friend who is a voice coach who also has an extremely talented voice.

brightsize 5y ago

It's odd that the article doesn't seem to touch at all on the automated scambaiting systems that exist, such as the legendary Lenny: https://www.youtube.com/c/ToaoDotNet/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/ToaoDotNet/videos .

sorokod 5y ago
The ducks are fantastic !

kwere 5y ago

worst scammers are the one who ask if you know amazon.com and close the call when you say no :(

SirLJ 5y ago

This site always cracks me out: https://419eater.com/html/joe_eboh.htm https://419eater.com/html/joe_eboh.htm