5 ms·

It's not about politeness. And it's not a cultural issue that's particular to the US. It appears that the author of the Hiawatha web server is not from the US

by jomar 5y ago

It's not about politeness. And it's not a cultural issue that's particular to the US. It appears that the author of the Hiawatha web server is not from the US either (Wikipedia suggests he is Dutch), so you might ask what link he has to Hiawatha and what justification he has for using the name and laying claim, in whatever small way, to a piece of the original Hiawatha's prestige. The term to research is cultural appropriation. (Clearly all these web servers are following Apache's lead in their naming. ISTR a story in the past that ASF had (retroactively) sought and/or received the blessing of the Apache Nation leadership for their use of the name; there's some related information at <https://www.apache.org/apache-name/ https://www.apache.org/apache-name/> though nothing as clear-cut as the story I'm vaguely remembering.)

throwaway210222 5y ago
> and what justification he has for using the name Because he's a free man ? And free men get to choose their words. All by themselves. I do it all the time. You should have a go at it.
mekkkkkk 5y ago
Using a single relatively obscure native american word out of context seems like a very fringe case of cultural appropriation. It's not going to reinforce any preconceived notions and it doesn't seem to be riding on some prestige. Perhaps I'm wrong and Hiawatha is a massively loaded word with a lot of implications for the general public, but I doubt it.
- jomar 5y ago
  I don't know, and you don't know either. The grandparent post was wondering what the issue is, and my post described what IMHO is the main potential issue. You have your opinion on to what degree this might be a problematic instance of cultural appropriation, and I have my opinion (which I haven't stated). But the point is that the opinion that matters is that of Iroquois people and other descendants and (cultural) inheritants of the person whose name is being used. (Not that they are obliged to have an opinion on this, or to speak with a single voice on this matter.)
  - mekkkkkk 5y ago
    Okay. It's absolutely true that neither of us knows. But considering, as you say, that the affected minority probably won't ever step forward with a unified opinion, what is the appropriate course of action? Should we stay away from using any words that someone else might possibly have interpretive precedence over? I find this all incredibly hard to navigate. I also feel that language in general and naming things in particular would suffer from strictly not being able to reuse concepts or names from cultures we are not part of.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > I don't know, and you don't know either. And at the same time you say. > you might ask what link he has to Hiawatha and what justification he has for using the name and laying claim, in whatever small way, to a piece of the original Hiawatha's prestige. > The term to research is cultural appropriation. You've already decided that: - it's cultural appropriation - the person has no right to use the name I wonder, are you of Iroquis descent? If not, what right do you have to claim their cultural appropriation on their behalf? Also, what are your views on such projects as Apache Kafka or apache Chukwa?
    - jomar 5y ago
      I have decided no such thing, and in fact my point is that in this case my own opinion is pretty much immaterial. But it is important for people like you and me to be aware of the concept and issue in general.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > But it is important for people like you Ah yes. People "like me" (a Jew from Moldova, born in the USSR, who lived 7 years in Turkey, and has now lived 10 years in Sweden) have to be taught about some concepts like "cultural appropriation" by people who claim to be offended on behalf of cultures they've never been part of.
        jomar 5y ago
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
I once had to explain to a Mexican why Speedy Gonzales can't be shown on American TV anymore. He was aghast that his beloved character had to be censored out of existence.
dmos62 5y ago
I've done light reading on cultural appropriation. The concept of collective intellectual property rights even came up. I'm pretty sceptical. Sounds a lot like "I've defined myself according to this unique-ish thing, but now you're making it not unique and thus invalidating my identity". I think an identity is a mutable, self-defined tool for being in society. If you say that your identity depends on something external, that is a lie, since you're implicitly saying that your self-definition is depended on something outside yourself. I think Stoics' discourse on the subject is very accessible. This is Epictetus in Enchiridion: > Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things. Death, for instance, is not terrible, else it would have appeared so to Socrates. But the terror consists in our notion of death that it is terrible. When therefore we are hindered, or disturbed, or grieved, let us never attribute it to others, but to ourselves; that is, to our own principles. An uninstructed person will lay the fault of his own bad condition upon others. Someone just starting instruction will lay the fault on himself. Some who is perfectly instructed will place blame neither on others nor on himself.
tremon 5y ago
Being Dutch as well, I'm going to guess that the name Hiawatha is taken from the Disney character of the same name, given how popular the Donald Duck comics are around here, and Hiawatha is a recurring character in them. It's orders of magnitude more likely that a person here grew up with the Donald Duck comics than that they are aware of Native American history. So what's it called when someone appropriates a Disney character name for their own use? Should the Debian project have to worry?

by jomar 5y ago

throwaway210222 5y ago

> and what justification he has for using the name Because he's a free man ? And free men get to choose their words. All by themselves. I do it all the time. You should have a go at it.

mekkkkkk 5y ago

Using a single relatively obscure native american word out of context seems like a very fringe case of cultural appropriation. It's not going to reinforce any preconceived notions and it doesn't seem to be riding on some prestige. Perhaps I'm wrong and Hiawatha is a massively loaded word with a lot of implications for the general public, but I doubt it.

jomar 5y ago
I don't know, and you don't know either. The grandparent post was wondering what the issue is, and my post described what IMHO is the main potential issue. You have your opinion on to what degree this might be a problematic instance of cultural appropriation, and I have my opinion (which I haven't stated). But the point is that the opinion that matters is that of Iroquois people and other descendants and (cultural) inheritants of the person whose name is being used. (Not that they are obliged to have an opinion on this, or to speak with a single voice on this matter.)
- mekkkkkk 5y ago
  Okay. It's absolutely true that neither of us knows. But considering, as you say, that the affected minority probably won't ever step forward with a unified opinion, what is the appropriate course of action? Should we stay away from using any words that someone else might possibly have interpretive precedence over? I find this all incredibly hard to navigate. I also feel that language in general and naming things in particular would suffer from strictly not being able to reuse concepts or names from cultures we are not part of.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > I don't know, and you don't know either. And at the same time you say. > you might ask what link he has to Hiawatha and what justification he has for using the name and laying claim, in whatever small way, to a piece of the original Hiawatha's prestige. > The term to research is cultural appropriation. You've already decided that: - it's cultural appropriation - the person has no right to use the name I wonder, are you of Iroquis descent? If not, what right do you have to claim their cultural appropriation on their behalf? Also, what are your views on such projects as Apache Kafka or apache Chukwa?
  - jomar 5y ago
    I have decided no such thing, and in fact my point is that in this case my own opinion is pretty much immaterial. But it is important for people like you and me to be aware of the concept and issue in general.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > But it is important for people like you Ah yes. People "like me" (a Jew from Moldova, born in the USSR, who lived 7 years in Turkey, and has now lived 10 years in Sweden) have to be taught about some concepts like "cultural appropriation" by people who claim to be offended on behalf of cultures they've never been part of.
      - jomar 5y ago

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

I once had to explain to a Mexican why Speedy Gonzales can't be shown on American TV anymore. He was aghast that his beloved character had to be censored out of existence.

dmos62 5y ago

I've done light reading on cultural appropriation. The concept of collective intellectual property rights even came up. I'm pretty sceptical. Sounds a lot like "I've defined myself according to this unique-ish thing, but now you're making it not unique and thus invalidating my identity". I think an identity is a mutable, self-defined tool for being in society. If you say that your identity depends on something external, that is a lie, since you're implicitly saying that your self-definition is depended on something outside yourself. I think Stoics' discourse on the subject is very accessible. This is Epictetus in Enchiridion: > Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things. Death, for instance, is not terrible, else it would have appeared so to Socrates. But the terror consists in our notion of death that it is terrible. When therefore we are hindered, or disturbed, or grieved, let us never attribute it to others, but to ourselves; that is, to our own principles. An uninstructed person will lay the fault of his own bad condition upon others. Someone just starting instruction will lay the fault on himself. Some who is perfectly instructed will place blame neither on others nor on himself.

tremon 5y ago

Being Dutch as well, I'm going to guess that the name Hiawatha is taken from the Disney character of the same name, given how popular the Donald Duck comics are around here, and Hiawatha is a recurring character in them. It's orders of magnitude more likely that a person here grew up with the Donald Duck comics than that they are aware of Native American history. So what's it called when someone appropriates a Disney character name for their own use? Should the Debian project have to worry?