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"People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated" Most of the stats claiming this are heavily manipulated, for

"People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated" Most of the stats claiming this are heavily manipulated, for example by using "everyone since the start of the epidemic" as the denominator for unvaccinated people. The US agencies have been especially bad at this, with their 99% claims (not at all true, as their own leaked documents show). Stats that don't play this kind of game show a much less convincing effectiveness. But even if your point were completely true, it has nothing to do with logic. It's just the latest talking point that will be gone in five minutes. Hospital demand has always been built out to meet demand. If unvaccinated people end up in hospital more often, they could just be charged more via insurers to pay for the additional capacity, same as the obese or those who smoke and get lung cancer or those who do extreme sports. There is no actual reason to force everyone to take a vaccine to manage hospital capacity, and in fact places with relatively low vaccination rates are not experiencing a hospital crisis of any kind (see: Switzerland). And even if you don't agree with that last paragraph, it's irrelevant because the topic we're discussing in this sub-thread is whether there's been government propaganda! And there certainly has been, vast amounts of it, it's just effective enough that some people can't see it for what it is. The unvaccinated are systematically demonized by governments and painted as dangerous including to the vaccinated, which is upside-down world thinking. It's no different to how people were described as "un-American" when they opposed the war in Iraq.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> "People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated" > Most of the stats claiming this are heavily manipulated Are you saying the states taking the extraordinary steps of rationing hospital care because of capacity problems don't really have full hospitals but are letting patients die based on manipulated stats? That...is an extraordinary claim that needs some support more than vague handwaving.
- native_samples 5y ago
  You're mixing up two separate things. 1. The hospitals that are busy firing health workers due to vaccine mandates are having capacity problems? Of course they are. That's an inevitable consequence of reducing staffing at a time when you need more. It's the result of bad government policy. 2. Statistical claims being manipulated. Consider the claim that 99% of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated, made quite recently by US authorities. This stat didn't match stats from any other country, because it was a lie. The CDC's own internal presentations show this, clear as day. See for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infe... Slide 4. The graph shows that already in May 15% of people hospitalized for COVID were vaccinated. Not 1% at all, although this claim was being made far more recently than May. And, it was climbing quickly, as would be expected from the stats released by other countries.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    > You're mixing up two separate things. > 1. The hospitals that are busy firing health workers due to vaccine mandates are having capacity problems? Of course they are. You're also mixing things. Sure in your mind these 2 things might be interchangeable, but staff doesn't equal bed. Got any detailed information that links the two? Who knows if the fired staff are even the Covid nurses, or if they're e.g. people who work in the hospital kitchen.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      Will you address point (2)? Bed capacity is mostly a synonym for worker capacity. When people talk about hospitals being "full" they don't mean literally physically full - that's why the emergency hospitals that were built never got used even though the press keep telling you that hospitals are overflowing. Here's a random recent example of such an article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/covid-vaccine-mandate-hospitals-virginia/2021/10/01/b7976d16-21ff-11ec-8200-5e3fd4c49f5e_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/covid-vaccine-mandate-h... "Across the country, health-care systems that have instituted mandates have seen some workers leave or be terminated over their refusal to get the shot, exacerbating a shortage in skilled nursing and bedside care." Another: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-hospitals-face-staff-shortages-vaccine-mandate-kicks-2021-09-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-hospitals-face-sta... "NEW YORK, Sept 27 (Reuters) - New York hospitals on Monday began firing or suspending healthcare workers for defying a state order to get the COVID-19 vaccine, and resulting staff shortages prompted some hospitals to postpone elective surgeries or curtail services ... Erie County Medical Center in Buffalo suspended elective inpatient surgeries and had stopped accepting intensive-care patients from other hospitals as it prepares to fire hundreds of unvaccinated employees, a spokesman Peter Cutler said." Note: before they were OK, accepting ICU patients and doing elective surgeries. After: they can't handle electives or ICU intake anymore. That isn't being caused by unvaccinated people getting so sick they're flooding out all the other operations, it's caused by hospitals being forced to shed staff. At any rate, isolated hospitals can easily run out of staffed beds for many reasons and this is a phenomenon that predates COVID. That's why there are stories about overflowing hospitals from the flu in pre-COVID years. As the article notes there were already problems but this is now making it worse. So staffing levels are not genuinely a COVID problem, let alone an unvaccinated COVID problem. If it were true that unvaccinated COVID = overflow then it'd be the case everywhere. Look at the Swiss dashboard: https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/hosp-capacity/total https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/hosp-capacity/total COVID utilization is low during the entire pandemic, with ~25% at its peak (but still lots of spare beds, i.e. a lot of these cases are infections of people already there for something else). There has never been a time throughout the whole two years when there wasn't plenty of spare capacity - in fact they've been reducing the number of beds allocated to ICU during 2021 because the level of nursing care required for them is expensive. Now look at vaccination rate on the same dashboard. Only 64% of the population has even taken one dose. Yet, the hospitals are fine and there are thousands of free beds. There is nothing magical about the Swiss people or hospitals. You can find similar graphs for US regions, I think (I am just less familiar with them). Rather, looking at the raw data tells a very different story to what the press and governments are telling.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> "People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated" > Most of the stats claiming this are heavily manipulated Are you saying the states taking the extraordinary steps of rationing hospital care because of capacity problems don't really have full hospitals but are letting patients die based on manipulated stats? That...is an extraordinary claim that needs some support more than vague handwaving.

native_samples 5y ago
You're mixing up two separate things. 1. The hospitals that are busy firing health workers due to vaccine mandates are having capacity problems? Of course they are. That's an inevitable consequence of reducing staffing at a time when you need more. It's the result of bad government policy. 2. Statistical claims being manipulated. Consider the claim that 99% of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated, made quite recently by US authorities. This stat didn't match stats from any other country, because it was a lie. The CDC's own internal presentations show this, clear as day. See for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infe... Slide 4. The graph shows that already in May 15% of people hospitalized for COVID were vaccinated. Not 1% at all, although this claim was being made far more recently than May. And, it was climbing quickly, as would be expected from the stats released by other countries.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  > You're mixing up two separate things. > 1. The hospitals that are busy firing health workers due to vaccine mandates are having capacity problems? Of course they are. You're also mixing things. Sure in your mind these 2 things might be interchangeable, but staff doesn't equal bed. Got any detailed information that links the two? Who knows if the fired staff are even the Covid nurses, or if they're e.g. people who work in the hospital kitchen.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Will you address point (2)? Bed capacity is mostly a synonym for worker capacity. When people talk about hospitals being "full" they don't mean literally physically full - that's why the emergency hospitals that were built never got used even though the press keep telling you that hospitals are overflowing. Here's a random recent example of such an article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/covid-vaccine-mandate-hospitals-virginia/2021/10/01/b7976d16-21ff-11ec-8200-5e3fd4c49f5e_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/covid-vaccine-mandate-h... "Across the country, health-care systems that have instituted mandates have seen some workers leave or be terminated over their refusal to get the shot, exacerbating a shortage in skilled nursing and bedside care." Another: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-hospitals-face-staff-shortages-vaccine-mandate-kicks-2021-09-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-hospitals-face-sta... "NEW YORK, Sept 27 (Reuters) - New York hospitals on Monday began firing or suspending healthcare workers for defying a state order to get the COVID-19 vaccine, and resulting staff shortages prompted some hospitals to postpone elective surgeries or curtail services ... Erie County Medical Center in Buffalo suspended elective inpatient surgeries and had stopped accepting intensive-care patients from other hospitals as it prepares to fire hundreds of unvaccinated employees, a spokesman Peter Cutler said." Note: before they were OK, accepting ICU patients and doing elective surgeries. After: they can't handle electives or ICU intake anymore. That isn't being caused by unvaccinated people getting so sick they're flooding out all the other operations, it's caused by hospitals being forced to shed staff. At any rate, isolated hospitals can easily run out of staffed beds for many reasons and this is a phenomenon that predates COVID. That's why there are stories about overflowing hospitals from the flu in pre-COVID years. As the article notes there were already problems but this is now making it worse. So staffing levels are not genuinely a COVID problem, let alone an unvaccinated COVID problem. If it were true that unvaccinated COVID = overflow then it'd be the case everywhere. Look at the Swiss dashboard: https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/hosp-capacity/total https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/hosp-capacity/total COVID utilization is low during the entire pandemic, with ~25% at its peak (but still lots of spare beds, i.e. a lot of these cases are infections of people already there for something else). There has never been a time throughout the whole two years when there wasn't plenty of spare capacity - in fact they've been reducing the number of beds allocated to ICU during 2021 because the level of nursing care required for them is expensive. Now look at vaccination rate on the same dashboard. Only 64% of the population has even taken one dose. Yet, the hospitals are fine and there are thousands of free beds. There is nothing magical about the Swiss people or hospitals. You can find similar graphs for US regions, I think (I am just less familiar with them). Rather, looking at the raw data tells a very different story to what the press and governments are telling.