4 ms·

I can see how using media fabrications around the subject of native Americans (e.g. their portrayal in cinema or cartoons) is impolite. But, how is it impolite

by dmos62 5y ago

I can see how using media fabrications around the subject of native Americans (e.g. their portrayal in cinema or cartoons) is impolite. But, how is it impolite to use their words or names as names for something unrelated? I'm not from US, so I might be missing something cultural. Would it be impolite to call a web server Londre (French for London)? Or, is the idea that calling a server by the name of a disadvantaged group a bit like calling them servants? You might have a point.

dmitriid 5y ago
IMO this is a very American outlook that is now being forced onto the rest of the world. There are multiple situations where developers would use a word, and be trampled by American developers for the choice of words.
- adar 5y ago
  Is there a non-North American context for the word "Hiawatha"?
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    “American outlook” here means the outlook of mainstream US culture, not some shared context of everyone who has ever inhabited the land. So the “American” (really, U.S. American) cultural context is in fact not related to Hiawatha at all. Hiawatha didn’t know what “America” was and presumably wouldn’t have conceptualized himself as being part of a pan-“Native American” identity. Assuming you could even explain the concept of a web server to a pre-industrial person, it’s impossible to know how he himself would have felt about this.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    Does it matter to anyone but "outraged" North Americans? I'd love to have input from people who are Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayugaa, or Seneca. BTW, I decided to take a look at Apache Incubator's projects to see if there's any outrage over (non-exhaustive list): - Kafka (Bohemian Jewish writer) - Chukwa (a dialect of Kulung language of Nepal) - Geronimo (Apache leader) - Hama (a city in Syria) - Apollo, Hermes, Aurora, Aries, Isis (multiple Greek, Roman, and Egyptian gods) - Joshua (Hebrew name) - Kylin (name of a mythical creature from East Asian legends) - Omid (Persian name) - Onami (Japanese destroyers) - Pig (insensitive to Muslims) - Trinidad, and, you guessed it, Tobago (also many other geographical names) ...
- Vinnl 5y ago
  Somewhat unrelated, but I'd like to ask people for more restraint in using the word "forced". People sometimes say they don't like others doing something, but that's still very far removed from forcing those others not to do something.
SiempreViernes 5y ago
I guess if it's really unrelated it's fine, but usually product names aren't chosen at random and it can happen that the intended connection of the product owner interacts poorly with the historical context they have ignored. Not saying this is the case here, because I didn't even know Hiawata was a historical person.
jomar 5y ago
It's not about politeness. And it's not a cultural issue that's particular to the US. It appears that the author of the Hiawatha web server is not from the US either (Wikipedia suggests he is Dutch), so you might ask what link he has to Hiawatha and what justification he has for using the name and laying claim, in whatever small way, to a piece of the original Hiawatha's prestige. The term to research is cultural appropriation. (Clearly all these web servers are following Apache's lead in their naming. ISTR a story in the past that ASF had (retroactively) sought and/or received the blessing of the Apache Nation leadership for their use of the name; there's some related information at <https://www.apache.org/apache-name/ https://www.apache.org/apache-name/> though nothing as clear-cut as the story I'm vaguely remembering.)
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  > and what justification he has for using the name Because he's a free man ? And free men get to choose their words. All by themselves. I do it all the time. You should have a go at it.
- mekkkkkk 5y ago
  Using a single relatively obscure native american word out of context seems like a very fringe case of cultural appropriation. It's not going to reinforce any preconceived notions and it doesn't seem to be riding on some prestige. Perhaps I'm wrong and Hiawatha is a massively loaded word with a lot of implications for the general public, but I doubt it.
  - jomar 5y ago
    I don't know, and you don't know either. The grandparent post was wondering what the issue is, and my post described what IMHO is the main potential issue. You have your opinion on to what degree this might be a problematic instance of cultural appropriation, and I have my opinion (which I haven't stated). But the point is that the opinion that matters is that of Iroquois people and other descendants and (cultural) inheritants of the person whose name is being used. (Not that they are obliged to have an opinion on this, or to speak with a single voice on this matter.)

by dmos62 5y ago

dmitriid 5y ago

IMO this is a very American outlook that is now being forced onto the rest of the world. There are multiple situations where developers would use a word, and be trampled by American developers for the choice of words.

adar 5y ago
Is there a non-North American context for the word "Hiawatha"?
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  “American outlook” here means the outlook of mainstream US culture, not some shared context of everyone who has ever inhabited the land. So the “American” (really, U.S. American) cultural context is in fact not related to Hiawatha at all. Hiawatha didn’t know what “America” was and presumably wouldn’t have conceptualized himself as being part of a pan-“Native American” identity. Assuming you could even explain the concept of a web server to a pre-industrial person, it’s impossible to know how he himself would have felt about this.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  Does it matter to anyone but "outraged" North Americans? I'd love to have input from people who are Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayugaa, or Seneca. BTW, I decided to take a look at Apache Incubator's projects to see if there's any outrage over (non-exhaustive list): - Kafka (Bohemian Jewish writer) - Chukwa (a dialect of Kulung language of Nepal) - Geronimo (Apache leader) - Hama (a city in Syria) - Apollo, Hermes, Aurora, Aries, Isis (multiple Greek, Roman, and Egyptian gods) - Joshua (Hebrew name) - Kylin (name of a mythical creature from East Asian legends) - Omid (Persian name) - Onami (Japanese destroyers) - Pig (insensitive to Muslims) - Trinidad, and, you guessed it, Tobago (also many other geographical names) ...
Vinnl 5y ago
Somewhat unrelated, but I'd like to ask people for more restraint in using the word "forced". People sometimes say they don't like others doing something, but that's still very far removed from forcing those others not to do something.

SiempreViernes 5y ago

I guess if it's really unrelated it's fine, but usually product names aren't chosen at random and it can happen that the intended connection of the product owner interacts poorly with the historical context they have ignored. Not saying this is the case here, because I didn't even know Hiawata was a historical person.

jomar 5y ago

It's not about politeness. And it's not a cultural issue that's particular to the US. It appears that the author of the Hiawatha web server is not from the US either (Wikipedia suggests he is Dutch), so you might ask what link he has to Hiawatha and what justification he has for using the name and laying claim, in whatever small way, to a piece of the original Hiawatha's prestige. The term to research is cultural appropriation. (Clearly all these web servers are following Apache's lead in their naming. ISTR a story in the past that ASF had (retroactively) sought and/or received the blessing of the Apache Nation leadership for their use of the name; there's some related information at <https://www.apache.org/apache-name/ https://www.apache.org/apache-name/> though nothing as clear-cut as the story I'm vaguely remembering.)

throwaway210222 5y ago
> and what justification he has for using the name Because he's a free man ? And free men get to choose their words. All by themselves. I do it all the time. You should have a go at it.
mekkkkkk 5y ago
Using a single relatively obscure native american word out of context seems like a very fringe case of cultural appropriation. It's not going to reinforce any preconceived notions and it doesn't seem to be riding on some prestige. Perhaps I'm wrong and Hiawatha is a massively loaded word with a lot of implications for the general public, but I doubt it.
- jomar 5y ago
  I don't know, and you don't know either. The grandparent post was wondering what the issue is, and my post described what IMHO is the main potential issue. You have your opinion on to what degree this might be a problematic instance of cultural appropriation, and I have my opinion (which I haven't stated). But the point is that the opinion that matters is that of Iroquois people and other descendants and (cultural) inheritants of the person whose name is being used. (Not that they are obliged to have an opinion on this, or to speak with a single voice on this matter.)