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The first sentence and the second sentence of your comment contradict each other. If Apple is using iPhones to pair location and MAC addresses of nearby device

The first sentence and the second sentence of your comment contradict each other. If Apple is using iPhones to pair location and MAC addresses of nearby devices, that is indeed "location being tracked by other people's iPhones".

bigiain 5y ago
And Apple have clearly decided that’s ok, because that’s how AirTags work. Whether your (and everybody else) iPhone and gps helping tell where my stolen bicycle is, is a good enough benefit to outweigh the privacy trade off is a good question (that Apple never asked me before opting me into their global Bluetooth surveillance platform).
- dpkonofa 5y ago
  They do actually ask before doing this. It's a question that you have to answer when you first updated to iOS 14 or that you answer when setting up a new iOS 15 device.
  - Shared404 5y ago
    But they never asked the non-apple users whose information is being transmitted, unless there's something I missed.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ They weren't fined whatsoever for the collection of the data. The fine was for stonewalling the investigation. > But, the commission said, Google did not engage in illegal wiretapping because the data was flowing, unencrypted, over open radio waves. At what point does reading unencrypted radio waves on open-use frequencies become an invasion of privacy? It'd be like a restaurant owner requiring people get permission before being able to write down the restaurant's name. If it's possible to passively read it for free, you can't control who views it.
      - Shared404 5y ago
        You appear to have intended to respond to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28743092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28743092 In any case, yes Apple may be within legality to record devices nearby broadcasting their location, but it feels scummy to me.
        jbverschoor 5y ago
        Macs are randomized. So it’s only when you’re connected to the same network
        Shared404 5y ago
        Mac meaning MAC Address? Those are definitely not randomized by default, even if operating systems tell them to act as if they are. And even then, why would that require being on the same network? I can see my wifi router's MAC without being connected to the network, ditto for your phones bluetooth. Edits because mobile.
        mynameisvlad 5y ago
        They are on IOS as of 14: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211227 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211227
        Shared404 5y ago
        Again, that's an OS feature. The hardware still has a set MAC, and the rest of the hardware whos addresses are being reported may or may not be randomized.
      - nitrogen 5y ago
        At what point does reading unencrypted radio waves on open-use frequencies become an invasion of privacy? If the transmitter is inside a house, and the unintended receiver is outside, that seems pretty clearly a violation of privacy.
- implements 5y ago
  That’s not how I understand them to work. When you pair a tag with a device they agree a shared key which is used to create a temporary identifier that changes every couple of hours. The tag broadcasts this identifier every few seconds, and nearby devices who hear it create a location message based on their position and encrypt it using the identifier as a public key, and then send that to Apple. Apple can’t read that message. Only the paired device can recreate the current temporary private key and decode for location data, etc. The paired device knows what the current temporary identifier should be and just asks Apple for any associated messages the Find My network may have received In theory Apple can’t snoop any of this - as long as the shared secret does leave the paired devices. It’s always possible there’s a back-door for targeted unveiling under legal obligation, of-course - but it’s supposed to be private under general use.
  - bigiain 5y ago
    I was responding to the last sentence: "If Apple is using iPhones to pair location and MAC addresses of nearby devices, that is indeed "location being tracked by other people's iPhones"." My AirTags have their "location being tracked by other people's iPhones". Sure - if we believe Apple (and I mostly do here) that their protocol and encryption works the way they describe, and that there's no bugs or back doors - then the only person who get to see my AirTag's location is me. But that still means "And Apple have clearly decided that’s ok" that my AirTags have their "location being tracked by other people's iPhones". They're selling me products on the assumption that your iPhone (and everybody else's, or at least enough other iPhone owners to make it useful) will happily listen out for bluetooth signals from AirTags, power up their GPS to get a current location, encrypt a bunch of data, then use your cellular data plan to send it to Apple for me. I'm sure 99% of the people on HN, if you'd told them 10-15 years ago that's what their phone would be doing by default in 2021, they'd have laughed at you and called you delusional. Or asked which dystopian scifi writer came up with that insane plot device.

bigiain 5y ago

And Apple have clearly decided that’s ok, because that’s how AirTags work. Whether your (and everybody else) iPhone and gps helping tell where my stolen bicycle is, is a good enough benefit to outweigh the privacy trade off is a good question (that Apple never asked me before opting me into their global Bluetooth surveillance platform).

dpkonofa 5y ago
They do actually ask before doing this. It's a question that you have to answer when you first updated to iOS 14 or that you answer when setting up a new iOS 15 device.
- Shared404 5y ago
  But they never asked the non-apple users whose information is being transmitted, unless there's something I missed.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ They weren't fined whatsoever for the collection of the data. The fine was for stonewalling the investigation. > But, the commission said, Google did not engage in illegal wiretapping because the data was flowing, unencrypted, over open radio waves. At what point does reading unencrypted radio waves on open-use frequencies become an invasion of privacy? It'd be like a restaurant owner requiring people get permission before being able to write down the restaurant's name. If it's possible to passively read it for free, you can't control who views it.
    - Shared404 5y ago
      You appear to have intended to respond to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28743092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28743092 In any case, yes Apple may be within legality to record devices nearby broadcasting their location, but it feels scummy to me.
      - jbverschoor 5y ago
        Macs are randomized. So it’s only when you’re connected to the same network
        Shared404 5y ago
        Mac meaning MAC Address? Those are definitely not randomized by default, even if operating systems tell them to act as if they are. And even then, why would that require being on the same network? I can see my wifi router's MAC without being connected to the network, ditto for your phones bluetooth. Edits because mobile.
        mynameisvlad 5y ago
        They are on IOS as of 14: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211227 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211227
        Shared404 5y ago
        Again, that's an OS feature. The hardware still has a set MAC, and the rest of the hardware whos addresses are being reported may or may not be randomized.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
      At what point does reading unencrypted radio waves on open-use frequencies become an invasion of privacy? If the transmitter is inside a house, and the unintended receiver is outside, that seems pretty clearly a violation of privacy.
implements 5y ago
That’s not how I understand them to work. When you pair a tag with a device they agree a shared key which is used to create a temporary identifier that changes every couple of hours. The tag broadcasts this identifier every few seconds, and nearby devices who hear it create a location message based on their position and encrypt it using the identifier as a public key, and then send that to Apple. Apple can’t read that message. Only the paired device can recreate the current temporary private key and decode for location data, etc. The paired device knows what the current temporary identifier should be and just asks Apple for any associated messages the Find My network may have received In theory Apple can’t snoop any of this - as long as the shared secret does leave the paired devices. It’s always possible there’s a back-door for targeted unveiling under legal obligation, of-course - but it’s supposed to be private under general use.
- bigiain 5y ago
  I was responding to the last sentence: "If Apple is using iPhones to pair location and MAC addresses of nearby devices, that is indeed "location being tracked by other people's iPhones"." My AirTags have their "location being tracked by other people's iPhones". Sure - if we believe Apple (and I mostly do here) that their protocol and encryption works the way they describe, and that there's no bugs or back doors - then the only person who get to see my AirTag's location is me. But that still means "And Apple have clearly decided that’s ok" that my AirTags have their "location being tracked by other people's iPhones". They're selling me products on the assumption that your iPhone (and everybody else's, or at least enough other iPhone owners to make it useful) will happily listen out for bluetooth signals from AirTags, power up their GPS to get a current location, encrypt a bunch of data, then use your cellular data plan to send it to Apple for me. I'm sure 99% of the people on HN, if you'd told them 10-15 years ago that's what their phone would be doing by default in 2021, they'd have laughed at you and called you delusional. Or asked which dystopian scifi writer came up with that insane plot device.