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It's not like you don't have the option of burning $duration_of_commute on personal time when you're already at home. You set the boundaries, enforce them.

hnlmorg 5y ago
That's one of those things that's much easier said than done. It's also not always about personal time, sometimes it's just catching up on sleep on the train. Without wanting to go too much into personal circumstance, that sleep was really valuable in a way that trying to have a nap at home isn't. And that energy went directly back to the kids. While I might have gained an hour during the week by not commuting, in practical terms that hour doesn't always translate into more engagement with the kids -- much as I'd love it if it could (again, not wanting to go too much into personal circumstance here). Anyhow, I'm not trying to paint the picture that I'm better off commuting. I'm definitely better off working from home. I'm just trying to illustrate that some people do extract value from their commute.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  There is a group of people who a 5 hour commute would be preferable because they hate their homelife. There are always people better off working more or staying out longer would make life easier. Trading 10 hours of commuting time for 10 hours of naps is something that could be addressed by going to sleep earlier and now those 10 hours can be family time. We shouldn't be going into offices for these secondary effects.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    > something that could be addressed by going to sleep earlier Please don't make bullshit assumptions like this when I've already said I didn't want to go into personal circumstances. In my case, the problem is medical, not motivational. And that's all I want to discuss because it's personal and, frankly put, none of your fucking business why I'm tired on an evening. > We shouldn't be going into offices for these secondary effects. I'm not advocating that people should be going into offices. What I'm advocating is that people should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to go in. Having someone like yourself tell me I should work from home is just as toxic as any discussions arguing that employees should go in. What I'm suggesting is companies should offer flexibility because people will have different preferences. Also you've just latched on the sleep thing as if that's the only benefit I get from going into the office. That's simply not the case. It was just a detail this tangent zeroed in on.
    - briHass 5y ago
      > Please don't make bullshit assumptions like this when I've already said I didn't want to go into personal circumstances. In my case, the problem is medical, not motivational. And that's all I want to discuss because it's personal and, frankly put, none of your fucking business why I'm tired on an evening. It sounds like you need a nap.
- pengaru 5y ago
  > I'm just trying to illustrate that some people do extract value from their commute. There's nothing preventing such people from commuting wastefully to their own home if the value is high enough. Last I checked there was nothing prohibiting commuters from commuting in loops, and there's nothing controversial about appreciating some time away from the people at home. You can get in your car or board public transit if you want, that nap sounds pretty good from where I'm sitting atm. I used to commute to a cafe for the separation and enjoyable travel time vs. just staying at home. The salient point is you have options with WFH, it isn't some kind of prison sentence unless you make it one.
  - Riverheart 5y ago
    The "wasteful" bit and dismissive attitude really necessary to make your point? Not everyone can or finds it easy to keep healthy boundaries and having a physical separation between work and home with a mandatory commute works for those people.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    > The salient point is you have options with WFH, it isn't some kind of prison sentence unless you make it one. No. You only have that option if your company supports flexible working. Your approach of saying everyone has to work remotely regardless of whether they want to is as toxic as those who suggest everyone should work in the office, even if they want the option to work remotely. This is what the "remote brigade" need to comprehend. Those of us who say "we like offices" aren't trying to take your freedom away. We're simply asking that you don't take our choices away when advocating for your flexibility.
    - hnlmorg 5y ago
      I'm getting downvoted again but it's quite true. Flexible working is the approach we should be striving for. Those who can work remotely can continue to do so. And those who want to come in to the office can do so. We shouldn't assume that remote work is a one size fits all and that's exactly what comments like the GPs does. Furthermore we should assume that those who do like office work are the unreasonable ones. We're not. We're still happy for you to work from home. We just don't personally want to do that every day ourselves. This isn't just theoretical. I run 3 teams of engineers and push this rule onto them. Thus far it has been very successful.
jdavis703 5y ago
Doesn’t work like that when your coworkers are working extra hours because they’re also not commuting.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  What’s the difference there versus workers who lived very close to the office? If a coworker is working harder than you, good for them. If that makes them more valuable, paid more, promoted faster, or whatever, so be it. At least with remote work, you could choose the same path as them if you wanted to.

hnlmorg 5y ago

That's one of those things that's much easier said than done. It's also not always about personal time, sometimes it's just catching up on sleep on the train. Without wanting to go too much into personal circumstance, that sleep was really valuable in a way that trying to have a nap at home isn't. And that energy went directly back to the kids. While I might have gained an hour during the week by not commuting, in practical terms that hour doesn't always translate into more engagement with the kids -- much as I'd love it if it could (again, not wanting to go too much into personal circumstance here). Anyhow, I'm not trying to paint the picture that I'm better off commuting. I'm definitely better off working from home. I'm just trying to illustrate that some people do extract value from their commute.

ipaddr 5y ago
There is a group of people who a 5 hour commute would be preferable because they hate their homelife. There are always people better off working more or staying out longer would make life easier. Trading 10 hours of commuting time for 10 hours of naps is something that could be addressed by going to sleep earlier and now those 10 hours can be family time. We shouldn't be going into offices for these secondary effects.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  > something that could be addressed by going to sleep earlier Please don't make bullshit assumptions like this when I've already said I didn't want to go into personal circumstances. In my case, the problem is medical, not motivational. And that's all I want to discuss because it's personal and, frankly put, none of your fucking business why I'm tired on an evening. > We shouldn't be going into offices for these secondary effects. I'm not advocating that people should be going into offices. What I'm advocating is that people should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to go in. Having someone like yourself tell me I should work from home is just as toxic as any discussions arguing that employees should go in. What I'm suggesting is companies should offer flexibility because people will have different preferences. Also you've just latched on the sleep thing as if that's the only benefit I get from going into the office. That's simply not the case. It was just a detail this tangent zeroed in on.
  - briHass 5y ago
    > Please don't make bullshit assumptions like this when I've already said I didn't want to go into personal circumstances. In my case, the problem is medical, not motivational. And that's all I want to discuss because it's personal and, frankly put, none of your fucking business why I'm tired on an evening. It sounds like you need a nap.
pengaru 5y ago
> I'm just trying to illustrate that some people do extract value from their commute. There's nothing preventing such people from commuting wastefully to their own home if the value is high enough. Last I checked there was nothing prohibiting commuters from commuting in loops, and there's nothing controversial about appreciating some time away from the people at home. You can get in your car or board public transit if you want, that nap sounds pretty good from where I'm sitting atm. I used to commute to a cafe for the separation and enjoyable travel time vs. just staying at home. The salient point is you have options with WFH, it isn't some kind of prison sentence unless you make it one.
- Riverheart 5y ago
  The "wasteful" bit and dismissive attitude really necessary to make your point? Not everyone can or finds it easy to keep healthy boundaries and having a physical separation between work and home with a mandatory commute works for those people.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  > The salient point is you have options with WFH, it isn't some kind of prison sentence unless you make it one. No. You only have that option if your company supports flexible working. Your approach of saying everyone has to work remotely regardless of whether they want to is as toxic as those who suggest everyone should work in the office, even if they want the option to work remotely. This is what the "remote brigade" need to comprehend. Those of us who say "we like offices" aren't trying to take your freedom away. We're simply asking that you don't take our choices away when advocating for your flexibility.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    I'm getting downvoted again but it's quite true. Flexible working is the approach we should be striving for. Those who can work remotely can continue to do so. And those who want to come in to the office can do so. We shouldn't assume that remote work is a one size fits all and that's exactly what comments like the GPs does. Furthermore we should assume that those who do like office work are the unreasonable ones. We're not. We're still happy for you to work from home. We just don't personally want to do that every day ourselves. This isn't just theoretical. I run 3 teams of engineers and push this rule onto them. Thus far it has been very successful.

jdavis703 5y ago

Doesn’t work like that when your coworkers are working extra hours because they’re also not commuting.

sokoloff 5y ago
What’s the difference there versus workers who lived very close to the office? If a coworker is working harder than you, good for them. If that makes them more valuable, paid more, promoted faster, or whatever, so be it. At least with remote work, you could choose the same path as them if you wanted to.