4 ms·

Hmm.. the article reads more like biased, sensationalism than unearthing some grand cosnpiracy. If there are some actual crimes mixed up in this they undercut

Hmm.. the article reads more like biased, sensationalism than unearthing some grand cosnpiracy. If there are some actual crimes mixed up in this they undercut the importance of those with foaming-at-the-mouth hype bits like "billionaire owns a $22mil home in france".. Are they saying it was purchased with tax payer money? or bribes? That is just one exmaple of the overwrought nature of the piece. I think they do justice a disservice by trying to imply (without explicitly calling _or_ substantiating) wrong-doing everywhere there may be wealth. Focus on the actual crimes..

cblconfederate 5y ago
Yup, nothing to see here, taxes are for losers
Wronnay 5y ago
Normally they don't pay taxes on offshore havens - so what they are trying to say is that these leaders and billionaires don't pay taxes like us normal ppl.
- splix 5y ago
  Before transferring the money to an offshore you earn them, which includes paying all of the taxes, like normal ppl. When you get money from the offshore (as dividends or whatever) you pay taxes on that income, like normal ppl. What happens with the money between these moments is different story though. Depends on how the money are spent. And to my understanding, if they used to buy a property, say in US, the offshore still pays the US property taxes.
  - inovica 5y ago
    In some respects, true, but that isn't always the case. Say you own a company in the UK which sells widgets, but you also own an offshore company that also sells widgets. If you are dealing with a Chinese company, you could use the offshore company to do the deal, paying little to no tax. The money then resides in the offshore company and has never gone through the UK - either as a business or personal. As an individual you could own a credit card that you use to spend in the UK, which goes back to the offshore company. In additional, the offshore company could buy property in the UK and no tax is paid. There are various other tricks and nuances that can be employed to help minimise tax paid - completely legally.
    - splix 5y ago
      I bet it isn't always the case too, right? I actually wanted to say that the fact of owning a foreign corp doesn't mean anything. It may be used to avoid some taxes, or may not. I can even give opposite examples, like when someone comes to the US to run a startup in California. For the country of their origin they definitely opened an offshore corp (in the US in this case) and don't pay taxes on it (they still pay to the US gov though). It's just more convenient to have a US corp rather that a corp in their home country, and not because of taxes which may be higher in the US.
Melting_Harps 5y ago
> Focus on the actual crimes. The broader question and sentiment of this piece is: how exactly have people who supposedly work in Public Service amassed such wealth when these positions are paid so low, and what lengths will they go to do so, especially in developing countries. The subtext being if their are conflicts of interest in their investments which happen to also be tied to offshore havens. This outrage is warranted, because it underscores how tiered the legal system is World wide (The US is least represented in the Pandora release but 2 Federal Reserve Presidents have just stepped down due to insider trading [0]) for those closest to power, whereas tax evasion is one of the most effective ways to get a criminal indictment for the average citizen in most of the World. 0: https://wgno.com/news/business/dallas-feds-kaplan-to-leave-in-wake-of-trading-disclosures/ https://wgno.com/news/business/dallas-feds-kaplan-to-leave-i...
- jrexilius 5y ago
  Agree with some of that. It is a concern when an elected official, with no other source of income, becomes wealthy in office. But their leading bullet point isn't about that. It's a billionaire, who _then_ ran for office. It's very clearly trying to equate wealth with wrong-doing by association and implication, without any specific claims or substantiation. And it undercuts the story where it is cases of bribes, theft, and corruption.
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    For many ideologues, wealth is evidence of crime.
  - jyounker 5y ago
    And said billionaire, who ran on a anti-corruption platform, concealed assets that are were required by law to be disclosed. That's a crime.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > This outrage is warranted, because it underscores how tiered the legal system is World wide (The US is least represented in the Pandora release but 2 Federal Reserve Presidents have just stepped down due to insider trading [0]) for those closest to power, whereas tax evasion is one of the most effective ways to get a criminal indictment for the average citizen in most of the World. For those closest to the power, the easiest way to get around the law... is to follow it to the letter. Biggest, and most famous Russian mafiosos live in the open in London, while diligently paying taxes on their multi-billion ill gotten wealth, and without using any offshore structures, or shady law firms at all. And the British establishment, Downing St., is very happy with this arrangement. What people forget about these things is that those offshores are a refuge for at most second grade rogue economic players, whose main rationale hiding their wealth is to hide it from other much bigger gangsters, and mafias from their home countries. They themselves choose places like London not because it's a rich city to live in, but because of London offering much better protection from being gunned down in broad daylight than cities in their home countries.
joshuahaglund 5y ago
It's really long but did you read even half of it? Because: Czech Prime Minister Andrej Babis, one of his country’s richest men, rose to power promising to crack down on tax evasion and corruption. In 2011, as he became more involved in politics, Babis told voters that he wanted to create a country “where entrepreneurs will do business and will be happy to pay taxes.” The leaked records show that, in 2009, Babis injected $22 million into a string of shell companies to buy a sprawling property, known as Chateau Bigaud, in a hilltop village in Mougins, France, near Cannes. Babis has not disclosed the shell companies and the chateau in the asset declarations he’s required to file as a public official, according to documents obtained by ICIJ’s Czech partner, Investigace.cz. In 2018, a real estate conglomerate indirectly owned by Babis quietly bought the Monaco company that owned the chateau. Sounds like at the very lest it was unreported. We have half the story, which in a lot of cases sounds like fraud. The other half of the story is in tax documents. ETA: The other thing is a lot of these people have the power to fix these systems that enable corruption, and like Babis, publicly say they will. But are they going to fix the system if they're using it?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  It is interesting since recent OFAC enforcement was against crypto exchange in Czech republic and I did have some other indications of CZ becoming an interesting nexus for otherwise unsavory or questionable activities ( from US perspective anyway ).
tomp 5y ago
A lot of tax avoidance is legal (Tony Blair example: there's stamp duty (transaction tax) on real estate in the UK, but no stamp duty on transactions involving companies that own UK real estate). But my prior is, that if the public knew about it (in general "these are the ways the elites use to pay less tax than you", as well as specifically "this career public official actually amassed $100m wealth on $100k salary"), the laws would change (e.g. introduction of wealth tax, or equalization of capital and labour taxes).
doublerebel 5y ago
The Guardian article does read like sensationalism and is suspiciously devoid of actual crimes. On the other hand, this full report direct from the ICIJ is much more damning and relates each leader's tax evasion directly with the poor conditions faced by their citizens. > “If the Jordanian monarch were to display his wealth more publicly, it wouldn’t only antagonize his people, it would piss off Western donors who have given him money,” ... > Marwan Kheireddine, Lebanon’s former minister of state and the chairman of Al Mawarid Bank, also appears in the secret files. In 2019, he scolded former parliamentary colleagues for inaction amid a dire economic crisis. Half the population was living in poverty, struggling to find food as grocers and bakeries closed. > “There is tax evasion and the government needs to address that,” Kheireddine said. > That same year, the Pandora Papers reveal, Kheireddine signed documents as owner of a BVI company that owns a $2 million yacht. > Al Mawarid Bank was one of many in the country that restricted customers’ U.S. dollar withdrawals to stem economic panic. > Wafaa Abou Hamdan, a 57-year-old widow, is among the regular Lebanese who remain angry at their country’s elites. Because of runaway inflation, her life savings plummeted from the equivalent of $60,000 to less than $5,000, she told Daraj, an ICIJ media partner.

cblconfederate 5y ago

Yup, nothing to see here, taxes are for losers

Wronnay 5y ago

Normally they don't pay taxes on offshore havens - so what they are trying to say is that these leaders and billionaires don't pay taxes like us normal ppl.

splix 5y ago
Before transferring the money to an offshore you earn them, which includes paying all of the taxes, like normal ppl. When you get money from the offshore (as dividends or whatever) you pay taxes on that income, like normal ppl. What happens with the money between these moments is different story though. Depends on how the money are spent. And to my understanding, if they used to buy a property, say in US, the offshore still pays the US property taxes.
- inovica 5y ago
  In some respects, true, but that isn't always the case. Say you own a company in the UK which sells widgets, but you also own an offshore company that also sells widgets. If you are dealing with a Chinese company, you could use the offshore company to do the deal, paying little to no tax. The money then resides in the offshore company and has never gone through the UK - either as a business or personal. As an individual you could own a credit card that you use to spend in the UK, which goes back to the offshore company. In additional, the offshore company could buy property in the UK and no tax is paid. There are various other tricks and nuances that can be employed to help minimise tax paid - completely legally.
  - splix 5y ago
    I bet it isn't always the case too, right? I actually wanted to say that the fact of owning a foreign corp doesn't mean anything. It may be used to avoid some taxes, or may not. I can even give opposite examples, like when someone comes to the US to run a startup in California. For the country of their origin they definitely opened an offshore corp (in the US in this case) and don't pay taxes on it (they still pay to the US gov though). It's just more convenient to have a US corp rather that a corp in their home country, and not because of taxes which may be higher in the US.

Melting_Harps 5y ago

> Focus on the actual crimes. The broader question and sentiment of this piece is: how exactly have people who supposedly work in Public Service amassed such wealth when these positions are paid so low, and what lengths will they go to do so, especially in developing countries. The subtext being if their are conflicts of interest in their investments which happen to also be tied to offshore havens. This outrage is warranted, because it underscores how tiered the legal system is World wide (The US is least represented in the Pandora release but 2 Federal Reserve Presidents have just stepped down due to insider trading [0]) for those closest to power, whereas tax evasion is one of the most effective ways to get a criminal indictment for the average citizen in most of the World. 0: https://wgno.com/news/business/dallas-feds-kaplan-to-leave-in-wake-of-trading-disclosures/ https://wgno.com/news/business/dallas-feds-kaplan-to-leave-i...

jrexilius 5y ago
Agree with some of that. It is a concern when an elected official, with no other source of income, becomes wealthy in office. But their leading bullet point isn't about that. It's a billionaire, who _then_ ran for office. It's very clearly trying to equate wealth with wrong-doing by association and implication, without any specific claims or substantiation. And it undercuts the story where it is cases of bribes, theft, and corruption.
- aww_dang 5y ago
  For many ideologues, wealth is evidence of crime.
- jyounker 5y ago
  And said billionaire, who ran on a anti-corruption platform, concealed assets that are were required by law to be disclosed. That's a crime.
baybal2 5y ago
> This outrage is warranted, because it underscores how tiered the legal system is World wide (The US is least represented in the Pandora release but 2 Federal Reserve Presidents have just stepped down due to insider trading [0]) for those closest to power, whereas tax evasion is one of the most effective ways to get a criminal indictment for the average citizen in most of the World. For those closest to the power, the easiest way to get around the law... is to follow it to the letter. Biggest, and most famous Russian mafiosos live in the open in London, while diligently paying taxes on their multi-billion ill gotten wealth, and without using any offshore structures, or shady law firms at all. And the British establishment, Downing St., is very happy with this arrangement. What people forget about these things is that those offshores are a refuge for at most second grade rogue economic players, whose main rationale hiding their wealth is to hide it from other much bigger gangsters, and mafias from their home countries. They themselves choose places like London not because it's a rich city to live in, but because of London offering much better protection from being gunned down in broad daylight than cities in their home countries.

joshuahaglund 5y ago

It's really long but did you read even half of it? Because: Czech Prime Minister Andrej Babis, one of his country’s richest men, rose to power promising to crack down on tax evasion and corruption. In 2011, as he became more involved in politics, Babis told voters that he wanted to create a country “where entrepreneurs will do business and will be happy to pay taxes.” The leaked records show that, in 2009, Babis injected $22 million into a string of shell companies to buy a sprawling property, known as Chateau Bigaud, in a hilltop village in Mougins, France, near Cannes. Babis has not disclosed the shell companies and the chateau in the asset declarations he’s required to file as a public official, according to documents obtained by ICIJ’s Czech partner, Investigace.cz. In 2018, a real estate conglomerate indirectly owned by Babis quietly bought the Monaco company that owned the chateau. Sounds like at the very lest it was unreported. We have half the story, which in a lot of cases sounds like fraud. The other half of the story is in tax documents. ETA: The other thing is a lot of these people have the power to fix these systems that enable corruption, and like Babis, publicly say they will. But are they going to fix the system if they're using it?

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
It is interesting since recent OFAC enforcement was against crypto exchange in Czech republic and I did have some other indications of CZ becoming an interesting nexus for otherwise unsavory or questionable activities ( from US perspective anyway ).

tomp 5y ago

A lot of tax avoidance is legal (Tony Blair example: there's stamp duty (transaction tax) on real estate in the UK, but no stamp duty on transactions involving companies that own UK real estate). But my prior is, that if the public knew about it (in general "these are the ways the elites use to pay less tax than you", as well as specifically "this career public official actually amassed $100m wealth on $100k salary"), the laws would change (e.g. introduction of wealth tax, or equalization of capital and labour taxes).

doublerebel 5y ago

The Guardian article does read like sensationalism and is suspiciously devoid of actual crimes. On the other hand, this full report direct from the ICIJ is much more damning and relates each leader's tax evasion directly with the poor conditions faced by their citizens. > “If the Jordanian monarch were to display his wealth more publicly, it wouldn’t only antagonize his people, it would piss off Western donors who have given him money,” ... > Marwan Kheireddine, Lebanon’s former minister of state and the chairman of Al Mawarid Bank, also appears in the secret files. In 2019, he scolded former parliamentary colleagues for inaction amid a dire economic crisis. Half the population was living in poverty, struggling to find food as grocers and bakeries closed. > “There is tax evasion and the government needs to address that,” Kheireddine said. > That same year, the Pandora Papers reveal, Kheireddine signed documents as owner of a BVI company that owns a $2 million yacht. > Al Mawarid Bank was one of many in the country that restricted customers’ U.S. dollar withdrawals to stem economic panic. > Wafaa Abou Hamdan, a 57-year-old widow, is among the regular Lebanese who remain angry at their country’s elites. Because of runaway inflation, her life savings plummeted from the equivalent of $60,000 to less than $5,000, she told Daraj, an ICIJ media partner.