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On superficial reading, this story conflates tax minimization with cases of corruption. Corruption means a politician becoming wealthy in an inappropriate way

On superficial reading, this story conflates tax minimization with cases of corruption. Corruption means a politician becoming wealthy in an inappropriate way from their position of power. Even if they were to pay taxes this is still a huge negative for society. Wherhers it's the president of Azerbaijan or Nancy Pelosi, it's should rise to the level of criminal enrichment if properly investigated. On the flip side are people who made their money legitimately and employ legal strategies available to them to minimize their tax bill. I have a hard time moralizing this because we all do it. Be it writing off donations, using tax loss harvesting, holding on to investments just long enough to not trigger capital gains taxes, etc - we all use strategies available to us to pay no more tax that we have to. I would expect nothing else from a more wealthy person. I would be totally fine if society made moves to close loopholes but I can't blame people for leveraging loopholes that exist because we should all do that.

vmception 5y ago
These stories always do that as it fulfills a fetish. But in any case, would your opinion change if the tax resident or provider wrote the tax law that got passed? In Mossack Fonsaco’s case that is what they did in a variety of island nations.
- xyzelement 5y ago
  I am not very familiar with this but on the surface what you describes sounds like corruption to me so yes very much against that.
crispyambulance 5y ago
> I would be totally fine if society made moves to close loopholes but I can't blame people for leveraging loopholes.. The first step in the right direction, then, is for people to become aware of these highly unsavory (but legal) practices. It's not going to be an easy fight. The kind of people that setup multiple shell companies to obfuscate the ownership of their assets have worked deliberately to extract wealth and game the system to a level that is unimaginable (at least for me before I heard about the related Panama Papers story that broke a couple years ago). Ultimately, as we approach a global society with insane levels of wealth inequality and where public infrastructure and social safety nets have started to come apart at the seams, it's imperative that these "loopholes" get closed. Otherwise, we're going to be revisiting Feudalism in 21st century western democracies. Sadly some people seem to want that. They see it as a kind of gilded age lords and their servants.
- esarbe 5y ago
  > They see it as a kind of gilded age lords and their servants. The vexing thing is that everyone thinks that they are going to end up on the "lord" side of this duality. I think this is the biggest lie of the 20th and 21th century; that this game is in any way, shape or form a fair one. The game is rigged and while everyone seems to recognize this on some level, almost everyone is trying to keep it rigged in the delusion that they be the masters one day. The fools.
  - whakim 5y ago
    Meritocracy is a giant myth (often completely unconnected to the underlying data), but it's important to recognize that it's just the latest in a long line of myths that have been told to justify inequality. For centuries, the wealth of the nobility and the clergy vis-a-vis the third estate was justified by appealing to the harmony of a tripartite society. In the ownership societies of the 19th century, inequality was often justified by pointing to the various rules and laws that governed and sacralized property rights (which were theoretically available to anyone) upon which stability and good governance depended.
Zigurd 5y ago
As others on this thread have pointed out, tax laws generally outlaw sham loans, licensing arrangements, etc. When that kind of cleverness works, it usually needs a boost from corruption since the tax laws already exclude it.
esarbe 5y ago
> I would be totally fine if society made moves to close loopholes but I can't blame people for leveraging loopholes that exist because we should all do that. You can still blame for bribing politicians to create these loopholes in the first place.
rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
>On superficial reading, this story conflates tax minimization with cases of corruption. Yes but many of the tax loopholes are just the result of the corruption of power (legal or not). It's only obvious to the people who benefit from it, so no one bats an eye.
whakim 5y ago
While I see what you're saying, I don't think that I completely agree with you because the wealthy using these techniques (especially if they are politicians, but even if not) are undermining public confidence in the tax regime. If Nancy Pelosi or the President of Azerbaijan are conducting their own affairs in one way while advocating for something else, why should I believe their supposed commitments to a socially equitable taxation regime or desire to make the world a better place?
archsurface 5y ago
Some of those wealthy people are so-called "royals" - paid by tax-payers.

vmception 5y ago

These stories always do that as it fulfills a fetish. But in any case, would your opinion change if the tax resident or provider wrote the tax law that got passed? In Mossack Fonsaco’s case that is what they did in a variety of island nations.

xyzelement 5y ago
I am not very familiar with this but on the surface what you describes sounds like corruption to me so yes very much against that.

crispyambulance 5y ago

> I would be totally fine if society made moves to close loopholes but I can't blame people for leveraging loopholes.. The first step in the right direction, then, is for people to become aware of these highly unsavory (but legal) practices. It's not going to be an easy fight. The kind of people that setup multiple shell companies to obfuscate the ownership of their assets have worked deliberately to extract wealth and game the system to a level that is unimaginable (at least for me before I heard about the related Panama Papers story that broke a couple years ago). Ultimately, as we approach a global society with insane levels of wealth inequality and where public infrastructure and social safety nets have started to come apart at the seams, it's imperative that these "loopholes" get closed. Otherwise, we're going to be revisiting Feudalism in 21st century western democracies. Sadly some people seem to want that. They see it as a kind of gilded age lords and their servants.

esarbe 5y ago
> They see it as a kind of gilded age lords and their servants. The vexing thing is that everyone thinks that they are going to end up on the "lord" side of this duality. I think this is the biggest lie of the 20th and 21th century; that this game is in any way, shape or form a fair one. The game is rigged and while everyone seems to recognize this on some level, almost everyone is trying to keep it rigged in the delusion that they be the masters one day. The fools.
- whakim 5y ago
  Meritocracy is a giant myth (often completely unconnected to the underlying data), but it's important to recognize that it's just the latest in a long line of myths that have been told to justify inequality. For centuries, the wealth of the nobility and the clergy vis-a-vis the third estate was justified by appealing to the harmony of a tripartite society. In the ownership societies of the 19th century, inequality was often justified by pointing to the various rules and laws that governed and sacralized property rights (which were theoretically available to anyone) upon which stability and good governance depended.

Zigurd 5y ago

As others on this thread have pointed out, tax laws generally outlaw sham loans, licensing arrangements, etc. When that kind of cleverness works, it usually needs a boost from corruption since the tax laws already exclude it.

esarbe 5y ago

> I would be totally fine if society made moves to close loopholes but I can't blame people for leveraging loopholes that exist because we should all do that. You can still blame for bribing politicians to create these loopholes in the first place.

rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago

>On superficial reading, this story conflates tax minimization with cases of corruption. Yes but many of the tax loopholes are just the result of the corruption of power (legal or not). It's only obvious to the people who benefit from it, so no one bats an eye.

whakim 5y ago

While I see what you're saying, I don't think that I completely agree with you because the wealthy using these techniques (especially if they are politicians, but even if not) are undermining public confidence in the tax regime. If Nancy Pelosi or the President of Azerbaijan are conducting their own affairs in one way while advocating for something else, why should I believe their supposed commitments to a socially equitable taxation regime or desire to make the world a better place?

archsurface 5y ago

Some of those wealthy people are so-called "royals" - paid by tax-payers.