7 ms·

A fantastic book. It will really make you ache for more information, though. Why do ascended beings only hang around for a few years and where do they go? What

A fantastic book. It will really make you ache for more information, though. Why do ascended beings only hang around for a few years and where do they go? What fraction of living beings survived the Blight and the Countermeasure? What is the present-day status of Earth?

jrootabega 5y ago
I think looking at things like Stargate SG-1 seasons 9/10 show why it's better to be left with such questions than answers. And I think that no author would be able to satisfyingly describe concepts like that anyway, just the way that their "mortal" characters perceive such concepts.
- goatlover 5y ago
  Liu Cixin managed to provide some very interesting answers regarding the nature of the cosmic dark forest and higher dimensional space in Death's End, the third book in the Three Body Problem trilogy. The Expanse book nine, Leviathan Falls, will probably explain the advanced alien conflict and unknown aggressors that proceeded human discovery in the distant past. Given how the authors have handled mysterious alien stuff so far in the first eight books, looks like they can pull it off.
  - jrootabega 5y ago
    I'll have to check it out! I've been delinquent on reading those.
    - garmaine 5y ago
      See the sibling comments... those books are SF thriller junk. Don't let me stop you from reading them if you enjoy that, but their reputation for "deep ideas" is not deserved.
  - stormking 5y ago
    Oh come on, it's a nice book and I enjoyed reading it but his physics are pure bullshit and his game theory is based on pop psychology.
    - goatlover 5y ago
      It's fiction, not a science book. I'm responding to the claim that an author can't depict something akin to transcendence or very advanced technology. Both of which are fictional, at least as far as we know. Arthur C Clarke has also written stuff along those lines.
      - stormking 5y ago
        I was referring to "managed to provide some very interesting answers regarding the nature of the cosmic dark forest and higher dimensional space". No, he was not because his ideas about "the nature of the cosmic dark forest" - allthough having at least some internal consistency - lack any foundation in actual science and his ideas about "higher dimensional space" were pure nonsense. They were not "answers" but plot devices.
        goatlover 5y ago
        Do you suppose ascended beings and advanced alien technology are scientific as opposed to plot devices? It's all fictional. Star Trek, Star Gate, Dune, Battlestar Galactica, even plenty of things in the Expanse (Epstein drive, protomolecule tech). Interesting answers means expanding on the rules and story in the fictional universe to provide explanations for mysteries the author(s) set up. It doesn't mean providing a hard scientific explanation for something that supposed to be beyond our scientific knowledge. Who took out the protomolecule builders and why? Leviathan Falls will likely provide some answers. Same with Death's End giving more details about the Dark Forest. It's an exploration of an idea, not a documentary. Imagine criticizing Dune because the spice and sand worms aren't based on actual biology.
        stormking 5y ago
- Causality1 5y ago
  I quite enjoyed SG-1 seasons 9 and 10. Perhaps I would also enjoy having those answers.
marstall 5y ago
One of my favorite images from the book is a fleeting mention of a star system that has been completely taken over by the sinister ancient AI (that is capable of leaping into the material world). Just a glimpse of enormous struts connecting the planets ...
ansible 5y ago
> Why do ascended beings only hang around for a few years and where do they go? ... a few years in realtime ... In the Transcend, they can "clock up" to a very high level. Living a million seconds to each one that passes in realtime. What would it take to create / adapt an intelligence that would last that long without falling into a very deep rut, as far as thinking goes? Maybe they've died of boredom, maybe they've discovered everything they originally sought to learn, maybe they've Sublimed (yes, I know, that's a Culture series thing) or otherwise gone to a higher plane of existence. It would have been interesting to explore this further, but perhaps Vinge didn't think he could pull that off.
marstall 5y ago
This might have been in A Deepness Upon The Sky, but VV runs out the "Smart Dust" endgame pretty thoroughly, with the conclusion that as miniature sensors reach their peak form of total surveillance (floating invisibly, pervasive, low-power microwave-burst-powered, mesh networked, video/audio/etc), they inevitably destroy civilization. Always tantalized by that idea, but always wondered why that would necessarily be the case ...
- TMWNN 5y ago
  >This might have been in A Deepness Upon The Sky, but VV runs out the "Smart Dust" endgame pretty thoroughly, with the conclusion that as miniature sensors reach their peak form of total surveillance (floating invisibly, pervasive, low-power microwave-burst-powered, mesh networked, video/audio/etc), they inevitably destroy civilization. This is indeed in A Deepness in the Sky. You're the first person in this discussion who's brought this up. This, to me, is the most important insight of Vinge in the Fire/Deepness series. >Always tantalized by that idea, but always wondered why that would necessarily be the case ... It's pretty obvious; those with the power to deploy such surveillance are always tempted to use and abuse such power. (EDIT: Let me reword this. Those with the power to deploy such surveillance methods inevitably deploy them. Smart dust is far, far, far more all-encompassing and inescapable than having security cameras on every street corner. The combination of these two things inevitably destroys civilization.) Because the traders in A Deepness in the Sky use coldsleep and visit planets every few decades or centuries, they notice big changes that occurred incrementally.

jrootabega 5y ago

I think looking at things like Stargate SG-1 seasons 9/10 show why it's better to be left with such questions than answers. And I think that no author would be able to satisfyingly describe concepts like that anyway, just the way that their "mortal" characters perceive such concepts.

goatlover 5y ago
Liu Cixin managed to provide some very interesting answers regarding the nature of the cosmic dark forest and higher dimensional space in Death's End, the third book in the Three Body Problem trilogy. The Expanse book nine, Leviathan Falls, will probably explain the advanced alien conflict and unknown aggressors that proceeded human discovery in the distant past. Given how the authors have handled mysterious alien stuff so far in the first eight books, looks like they can pull it off.
- jrootabega 5y ago
  I'll have to check it out! I've been delinquent on reading those.
  - garmaine 5y ago
    See the sibling comments... those books are SF thriller junk. Don't let me stop you from reading them if you enjoy that, but their reputation for "deep ideas" is not deserved.
- stormking 5y ago
  Oh come on, it's a nice book and I enjoyed reading it but his physics are pure bullshit and his game theory is based on pop psychology.
  - goatlover 5y ago
    It's fiction, not a science book. I'm responding to the claim that an author can't depict something akin to transcendence or very advanced technology. Both of which are fictional, at least as far as we know. Arthur C Clarke has also written stuff along those lines.
    - stormking 5y ago
      I was referring to "managed to provide some very interesting answers regarding the nature of the cosmic dark forest and higher dimensional space". No, he was not because his ideas about "the nature of the cosmic dark forest" - allthough having at least some internal consistency - lack any foundation in actual science and his ideas about "higher dimensional space" were pure nonsense. They were not "answers" but plot devices.
      - goatlover 5y ago
        Do you suppose ascended beings and advanced alien technology are scientific as opposed to plot devices? It's all fictional. Star Trek, Star Gate, Dune, Battlestar Galactica, even plenty of things in the Expanse (Epstein drive, protomolecule tech). Interesting answers means expanding on the rules and story in the fictional universe to provide explanations for mysteries the author(s) set up. It doesn't mean providing a hard scientific explanation for something that supposed to be beyond our scientific knowledge. Who took out the protomolecule builders and why? Leviathan Falls will likely provide some answers. Same with Death's End giving more details about the Dark Forest. It's an exploration of an idea, not a documentary. Imagine criticizing Dune because the spice and sand worms aren't based on actual biology.
        stormking 5y ago
Causality1 5y ago
I quite enjoyed SG-1 seasons 9 and 10. Perhaps I would also enjoy having those answers.

marstall 5y ago

One of my favorite images from the book is a fleeting mention of a star system that has been completely taken over by the sinister ancient AI (that is capable of leaping into the material world). Just a glimpse of enormous struts connecting the planets ...

ansible 5y ago

> Why do ascended beings only hang around for a few years and where do they go? ... a few years in realtime ... In the Transcend, they can "clock up" to a very high level. Living a million seconds to each one that passes in realtime. What would it take to create / adapt an intelligence that would last that long without falling into a very deep rut, as far as thinking goes? Maybe they've died of boredom, maybe they've discovered everything they originally sought to learn, maybe they've Sublimed (yes, I know, that's a Culture series thing) or otherwise gone to a higher plane of existence. It would have been interesting to explore this further, but perhaps Vinge didn't think he could pull that off.

marstall 5y ago

This might have been in A Deepness Upon The Sky, but VV runs out the "Smart Dust" endgame pretty thoroughly, with the conclusion that as miniature sensors reach their peak form of total surveillance (floating invisibly, pervasive, low-power microwave-burst-powered, mesh networked, video/audio/etc), they inevitably destroy civilization. Always tantalized by that idea, but always wondered why that would necessarily be the case ...

TMWNN 5y ago
>This might have been in A Deepness Upon The Sky, but VV runs out the "Smart Dust" endgame pretty thoroughly, with the conclusion that as miniature sensors reach their peak form of total surveillance (floating invisibly, pervasive, low-power microwave-burst-powered, mesh networked, video/audio/etc), they inevitably destroy civilization. This is indeed in A Deepness in the Sky. You're the first person in this discussion who's brought this up. This, to me, is the most important insight of Vinge in the Fire/Deepness series. >Always tantalized by that idea, but always wondered why that would necessarily be the case ... It's pretty obvious; those with the power to deploy such surveillance are always tempted to use and abuse such power. (EDIT: Let me reword this. Those with the power to deploy such surveillance methods inevitably deploy them. Smart dust is far, far, far more all-encompassing and inescapable than having security cameras on every street corner. The combination of these two things inevitably destroys civilization.) Because the traders in A Deepness in the Sky use coldsleep and visit planets every few decades or centuries, they notice big changes that occurred incrementally.