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(I don't feel I'm expressing myself well here, but bear with me:) Something that tends to be underappreciated is the risk associated with contemporary mobile p

by 3np 5y ago

(I don't feel I'm expressing myself well here, but bear with me:) Something that tends to be underappreciated is the risk associated with contemporary mobile payments solutions. Both the individual and the local economy become incredibly reliant on a small number of private companies. For more well-off individuals who can spread their risk ad easily switch providers, this is much less of a practical risk and therefore are likely to shrug off. They also tend to have access to providers with human support and better platforms. Consider also that for multi-national providers, they become affected in new ways to foreign domestic and international policies and politics. These are just some ways in which people become serfs, at real mercy of the whims and fate of politics and businesses. Last week, thousands of people who had Coinbase accounts in Japan are now forced to close them due to them now only being available for Japanese citizens (as opposed to residents). This is probably not more than an annoyance for most of those affected, but transfer that to migrant populations and mobile banking in Africa and things get dark pretty quickly. Cryptocurrencies (when done in a way that liberates the user as opposed to being wrapped in centralized fintech) break this dynamic completely.

zinekeller 5y ago
> Cryptocurrencies (when done in a way that liberates the user as opposed to being wrapped in centralized fintech) break this dynamic completely. Now, tell me how to do this exactly? (At least a general sketch?) Because I really think that this is really not a problem that can be seen with cryptocurrency, but rather with how societies work, which is hard to solve. I don't want to favour one or the other, but societal problems are something that require all of the cogs are working. Even if I assume that people are willing to use cryptocurrencies, oppressive governments can seize digital gadgets out of their hands, much as they can block transactions. I also don't have a solution to this unfortunately, and I feel that this is unsolvable.
- lowkey 5y ago
  See Bitcoin’s BIP-39. With crypto, if I can remember 12 words I can freely transport my life savings anywhere in the world and no government can seize my wealth without torturing me into giving up my passphrase. Can you share a similar strategy for refugees using fiat, gold, real estate, stocks or bonds?
  - zinekeller 5y ago
    This is feasible if you have something for long-term savings. At the same time though, this doesn't solve the day-to-day problems though (like transactions), especially in context of Africa.
    - toolz 5y ago
      I feel like your response embodies crypto critics quite well. Someone asks a question, someone answers how crypto helps and then someone else moves the goalposts.
      - zinekeller 5y ago
        I am focusing on the article itself, which is if cryptocurrency is feasible to the unbanked, usually in Africa, and if cryptocurrency can solve it. I have explained in another comment why Africans usually can't use banks in genral, and why in my opinion cryptocurrency can't fully solve the problem (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736411). I personally want to understand from people who understands how they do function if they do have ideas to actually do it in a practical way. While the idea presented by the GP is indeed good in the long run, it still doesn't solve the problem that most unbanked people in those areas have only either a basic phone (i.e. purely calls and text) or even none, which precludes the habitual use of cryptocurrencies. I also acknowledged that for long-term storage away from often-opressive regimes, there are solutions available. However, unless you can give everyone in Africa a smartphone and build the infrastructure necessary to have a reliable internet connection, I cannot say that, as of what I've read, have a realistic solution to everyday use of cryptocurrencies hold well. Unfortunately, you've just stated something that is frankly unhelpful. I've read the article, I've read the comments and be very careful since that these types of discussions tends to catch fire quickly. I've just pointed out that for realistic use in this case, it is currently simply impossible in inner reaches of Africa. Even 3np acknowedges that costs on dedicated wallets should decrease (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736599) if Africans will use it. As of now, it's not simply feasible.
- 3np 5y ago
  Maybe not “exactly” but for key management roughly something like the Ledger Nano X (has to come down 10x in price obv): Small separate device that can be used to sign transactions with. Can be used with smartphone wirelessly. This device should also work seamlessly for general 2FA and auth/identification, preferably usable with government services. Apart from being sold directly to consumers, it could be issued by providers of banking services (lending or payments for example) to clients. You would also have service providers offering key recovery services (could be shamired)
  - zinekeller 5y ago
    Okay, I will assume that the government is either caring, doesn't care or incompetent (meaning not actively suppressing this). You forgot the mining side, so how do you solve that? Because, for example, the 50%+1 problem is still there, right, so if you really want a decentralised system, you also need to solve this. Also, your solution doesn't work against oppressive governments. (Again, I don't have a solution to that, just pointing out that they do exist.)
    - lowkey 5y ago
      See my point above. If you can memorize 12 words crypto makes this possible. No other store of value can make the same claim. No hardware wallet is required.

by 3np 5y ago

zinekeller 5y ago

> Cryptocurrencies (when done in a way that liberates the user as opposed to being wrapped in centralized fintech) break this dynamic completely. Now, tell me how to do this exactly? (At least a general sketch?) Because I really think that this is really not a problem that can be seen with cryptocurrency, but rather with how societies work, which is hard to solve. I don't want to favour one or the other, but societal problems are something that require all of the cogs are working. Even if I assume that people are willing to use cryptocurrencies, oppressive governments can seize digital gadgets out of their hands, much as they can block transactions. I also don't have a solution to this unfortunately, and I feel that this is unsolvable.

lowkey 5y ago
See Bitcoin’s BIP-39. With crypto, if I can remember 12 words I can freely transport my life savings anywhere in the world and no government can seize my wealth without torturing me into giving up my passphrase. Can you share a similar strategy for refugees using fiat, gold, real estate, stocks or bonds?
- zinekeller 5y ago
  This is feasible if you have something for long-term savings. At the same time though, this doesn't solve the day-to-day problems though (like transactions), especially in context of Africa.
  - toolz 5y ago
    I feel like your response embodies crypto critics quite well. Someone asks a question, someone answers how crypto helps and then someone else moves the goalposts.
    - zinekeller 5y ago
      I am focusing on the article itself, which is if cryptocurrency is feasible to the unbanked, usually in Africa, and if cryptocurrency can solve it. I have explained in another comment why Africans usually can't use banks in genral, and why in my opinion cryptocurrency can't fully solve the problem (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736411). I personally want to understand from people who understands how they do function if they do have ideas to actually do it in a practical way. While the idea presented by the GP is indeed good in the long run, it still doesn't solve the problem that most unbanked people in those areas have only either a basic phone (i.e. purely calls and text) or even none, which precludes the habitual use of cryptocurrencies. I also acknowledged that for long-term storage away from often-opressive regimes, there are solutions available. However, unless you can give everyone in Africa a smartphone and build the infrastructure necessary to have a reliable internet connection, I cannot say that, as of what I've read, have a realistic solution to everyday use of cryptocurrencies hold well. Unfortunately, you've just stated something that is frankly unhelpful. I've read the article, I've read the comments and be very careful since that these types of discussions tends to catch fire quickly. I've just pointed out that for realistic use in this case, it is currently simply impossible in inner reaches of Africa. Even 3np acknowedges that costs on dedicated wallets should decrease (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28736599) if Africans will use it. As of now, it's not simply feasible.
3np 5y ago
Maybe not “exactly” but for key management roughly something like the Ledger Nano X (has to come down 10x in price obv): Small separate device that can be used to sign transactions with. Can be used with smartphone wirelessly. This device should also work seamlessly for general 2FA and auth/identification, preferably usable with government services. Apart from being sold directly to consumers, it could be issued by providers of banking services (lending or payments for example) to clients. You would also have service providers offering key recovery services (could be shamired)
- zinekeller 5y ago
  Okay, I will assume that the government is either caring, doesn't care or incompetent (meaning not actively suppressing this). You forgot the mining side, so how do you solve that? Because, for example, the 50%+1 problem is still there, right, so if you really want a decentralised system, you also need to solve this. Also, your solution doesn't work against oppressive governments. (Again, I don't have a solution to that, just pointing out that they do exist.)
  - lowkey 5y ago
    See my point above. If you can memorize 12 words crypto makes this possible. No other store of value can make the same claim. No hardware wallet is required.