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The propaganda is there, it's just sufficiently well evolved that you can't see it. It even works as you say it does, which is amazing. Consider the way that B

The propaganda is there, it's just sufficiently well evolved that you can't see it. It even works as you say it does, which is amazing. Consider the way that Biden keeps blaming lockdowns and government measures on the unvaccinated. He keeps saying, everything can go back to normal, if only those annoying unvaccinated people get the jab. Literally "the unvaccinated are undermining our way of life", as you put it. But that's illogical because if the vaccines worked, there'd be no need for any more measures. People could decide to take it or not and deal with the consequences themselves. Health insurers could take it into account in their premium calculations, if necessary. Instead they are keeping the measures and using them as an excuse to pit Americans against each other. In reality the measures will never end until people collectively insist they are removed. Israel is a good demonstration of what happens in a country with high levels of compliance: over a million people who thought they were vaccinated, are now having their passes revoked, because they didn't get a booster shot. How many "boosters" are necessary for this particular vaccine? Probably an infinite number. They certainly are not any way to restore life to normal given government attitudes so far.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
> But that's illogical because if the vaccines worked, there'd be no need for any more measures. Your logic seems short there. People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated. If the vaccine workee and everyone took it then we can reduce the restrictions, oh hey this is a comment thread about a country that's doing exactly that... does that mean the vaccine is working? Zomg! Imagine a row of houses, and the ones at the left side are on fire. Firefighters are spraying the houses from the right with retardant so they will only be slightly charred if the fire reached them. In my mind whar you're proposing is analogous to wanting the firefighters to stop spraying the stuff after 60% of the houses got the spray.
- native_samples 5y ago
  "People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated" Most of the stats claiming this are heavily manipulated, for example by using "everyone since the start of the epidemic" as the denominator for unvaccinated people. The US agencies have been especially bad at this, with their 99% claims (not at all true, as their own leaked documents show). Stats that don't play this kind of game show a much less convincing effectiveness. But even if your point were completely true, it has nothing to do with logic. It's just the latest talking point that will be gone in five minutes. Hospital demand has always been built out to meet demand. If unvaccinated people end up in hospital more often, they could just be charged more via insurers to pay for the additional capacity, same as the obese or those who smoke and get lung cancer or those who do extreme sports. There is no actual reason to force everyone to take a vaccine to manage hospital capacity, and in fact places with relatively low vaccination rates are not experiencing a hospital crisis of any kind (see: Switzerland). And even if you don't agree with that last paragraph, it's irrelevant because the topic we're discussing in this sub-thread is whether there's been government propaganda! And there certainly has been, vast amounts of it, it's just effective enough that some people can't see it for what it is. The unvaccinated are systematically demonized by governments and painted as dangerous including to the vaccinated, which is upside-down world thinking. It's no different to how people were described as "un-American" when they opposed the war in Iraq.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > "People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated" > Most of the stats claiming this are heavily manipulated Are you saying the states taking the extraordinary steps of rationing hospital care because of capacity problems don't really have full hospitals but are letting patients die based on manipulated stats? That...is an extraordinary claim that needs some support more than vague handwaving.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      You're mixing up two separate things. 1. The hospitals that are busy firing health workers due to vaccine mandates are having capacity problems? Of course they are. That's an inevitable consequence of reducing staffing at a time when you need more. It's the result of bad government policy. 2. Statistical claims being manipulated. Consider the claim that 99% of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated, made quite recently by US authorities. This stat didn't match stats from any other country, because it was a lie. The CDC's own internal presentations show this, clear as day. See for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infe... Slide 4. The graph shows that already in May 15% of people hospitalized for COVID were vaccinated. Not 1% at all, although this claim was being made far more recently than May. And, it was climbing quickly, as would be expected from the stats released by other countries.
      - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
        > You're mixing up two separate things. > 1. The hospitals that are busy firing health workers due to vaccine mandates are having capacity problems? Of course they are. You're also mixing things. Sure in your mind these 2 things might be interchangeable, but staff doesn't equal bed. Got any detailed information that links the two? Who knows if the fired staff are even the Covid nurses, or if they're e.g. people who work in the hospital kitchen.
        5y ago

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

> But that's illogical because if the vaccines worked, there'd be no need for any more measures. Your logic seems short there. People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated. If the vaccine workee and everyone took it then we can reduce the restrictions, oh hey this is a comment thread about a country that's doing exactly that... does that mean the vaccine is working? Zomg! Imagine a row of houses, and the ones at the left side are on fire. Firefighters are spraying the houses from the right with retardant so they will only be slightly charred if the fire reached them. In my mind whar you're proposing is analogous to wanting the firefighters to stop spraying the stuff after 60% of the houses got the spray.

native_samples 5y ago
"People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated" Most of the stats claiming this are heavily manipulated, for example by using "everyone since the start of the epidemic" as the denominator for unvaccinated people. The US agencies have been especially bad at this, with their 99% claims (not at all true, as their own leaked documents show). Stats that don't play this kind of game show a much less convincing effectiveness. But even if your point were completely true, it has nothing to do with logic. It's just the latest talking point that will be gone in five minutes. Hospital demand has always been built out to meet demand. If unvaccinated people end up in hospital more often, they could just be charged more via insurers to pay for the additional capacity, same as the obese or those who smoke and get lung cancer or those who do extreme sports. There is no actual reason to force everyone to take a vaccine to manage hospital capacity, and in fact places with relatively low vaccination rates are not experiencing a hospital crisis of any kind (see: Switzerland). And even if you don't agree with that last paragraph, it's irrelevant because the topic we're discussing in this sub-thread is whether there's been government propaganda! And there certainly has been, vast amounts of it, it's just effective enough that some people can't see it for what it is. The unvaccinated are systematically demonized by governments and painted as dangerous including to the vaccinated, which is upside-down world thinking. It's no different to how people were described as "un-American" when they opposed the war in Iraq.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > "People are still falling ill and filling up hospitals, and these are primarily the unvaccinated" > Most of the stats claiming this are heavily manipulated Are you saying the states taking the extraordinary steps of rationing hospital care because of capacity problems don't really have full hospitals but are letting patients die based on manipulated stats? That...is an extraordinary claim that needs some support more than vague handwaving.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    You're mixing up two separate things. 1. The hospitals that are busy firing health workers due to vaccine mandates are having capacity problems? Of course they are. That's an inevitable consequence of reducing staffing at a time when you need more. It's the result of bad government policy. 2. Statistical claims being manipulated. Consider the claim that 99% of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated, made quite recently by US authorities. This stat didn't match stats from any other country, because it was a lie. The CDC's own internal presentations show this, clear as day. See for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infe... Slide 4. The graph shows that already in May 15% of people hospitalized for COVID were vaccinated. Not 1% at all, although this claim was being made far more recently than May. And, it was climbing quickly, as would be expected from the stats released by other countries.
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      > You're mixing up two separate things. > 1. The hospitals that are busy firing health workers due to vaccine mandates are having capacity problems? Of course they are. You're also mixing things. Sure in your mind these 2 things might be interchangeable, but staff doesn't equal bed. Got any detailed information that links the two? Who knows if the fired staff are even the Covid nurses, or if they're e.g. people who work in the hospital kitchen.
      - 5y ago