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"Limits" are exactly what makes Pico-8 awesome. I definitely appreciate the changes Tic-80 offers, but Pico-8 and the surrounding community definitely have an x

"Limits" are exactly what makes Pico-8 awesome. I definitely appreciate the changes Tic-80 offers, but Pico-8 and the surrounding community definitely have an x-factor that the "clones" are missing.

jhbadger 5y ago
At least in TIC-80, the faux retro limits are still there (including the annoying low-res font which is a bit silly -- actual 8-bit computers didn't have fonts that bad). The main thing that it gives you over PICO-8 (besides being free) is the ability to use different languages. I don't think there is anything particularly retro about Lua -- it didn't even exist in the 8-bit era these fantasy consoles are nostalgic for. There's a (paid) fantasy console on steam that uses BASIC, which is at least period faithful.
hypertele-Xii 5y ago
There's nothing awesome about being artificially hamstrung with the kinds of games you can make. PICO-8's limits are crippling. You are required to perform an absurd amount of hacking which, while of interest to some types, completely bypasses the integrated tools which are supposed to help you make games. It's a fatally schizophrenic tool.
- abdulmuhaimin 5y ago
  Fatally schizophrenic tool?? More like lovely schizophrenic tool. Not everyone need/want to get lost in a tonnes of features.
  - hypertele-Xii 5y ago
    It's not a "feature" to have no limits.
- pull_my_finger 5y ago
  If you've spent time in the community you'll see different types of equally interesting projects. Lots of games that are able to provide you a fair amount of entertainment or some that really push the limits of what you'd _think_ is possible. The constraints really help you with scope creep as well as you have to decide what's important to the game. Brief selection of some projects things that I personally enjoyed[1] [1]: https://hastebin.com/raw/xopurataji https://hastebin.com/raw/xopurataji
  - hypertele-Xii 5y ago
    > different types of equally interesting projects And they all have one thing in common: They hit the limits and were unable to progress.
- otikik 5y ago
  I wholeheartedly disagree. Too many options can be a bad thing, that has been proven and there's plenty of literature about it, for example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice I remember when the first thing you had to do in order to program a videogame was creating your own TIFF or BMP parser. That's ok if you enjoy that sort of thing, but it gets in the way when what you want is a working videogame, not a tech demo. That kind of limitation, frankly, sucked. On the other hand nowadays the problem is the opposite: there's so many ways to do stuff. So many options. Which engine. Which language. What graphics pipeline. Which Entity-Component System, etc. The trouble is that we are back to the previous problem. The tech decisions get in the way of the creative process. What Pico8 does right is limiting the amount of tech-related decisions you have to make. That frees mental cycles in order to be creative and build something that works. I know from the get go that I've got 8x8 16-color bitmaps, and that's it. No time wasted parsing TIFFs, and also no time wasted choosing tech. You start and go. All that said, I don't think Pico-8 is for everyone. If you feel restricted by it, perhaps you will be more comfortable with other engines. I program games as a hobby an I am very limited on the amount of time I can dedicate to it. I tend to make small 1-evening prototypes that are never finished. Pico-8 is awesome for that. It's definitely awesome for me, at least.
  - hypertele-Xii 5y ago
    > What Pico8 does right is limiting the amount of tech-related decisions you have to make. How is it a tech-related decision if I want to add another sprite, but can't, because PICO-8 decided for me that I'm only allowed to have a specific amount? It's completely arbitrary and literally stops a game's development! That's not what a game development tool is supposed to do!
    - otikik 5y ago
      You are saying it as if it happens suddenly and by surprise. Those limits are presented since you open the tool. A screwdriver isn't "good" at putting nails down. It would be pointless to say that it's not a good screwdriver because it doesn't drive nails. Pico-8 is like that. It only allows a certain amount of everything: sprites, sounds, colors, even program tokens. I must point out that it is possible to drive a nail using a screwdriver. You hold the screwdriver from the metal end, and repeatedly hit the nail head with the handle. It's a bit awkward. (But also sort of impressive. Like the people that do 3D stuff with Pico-8). There are options out there to go around most of the limits if you really want to. You might have to sacrifice something. You need to be creative, the same as with the screwdriver. I actually enjoy that.

"Limits" are exactly what makes Pico-8 awesome. I definitely appreciate the changes Tic-80 offers, but Pico-8 and the surrounding community definitely have an x-factor that the "clones" are missing.

jhbadger 5y ago

At least in TIC-80, the faux retro limits are still there (including the annoying low-res font which is a bit silly -- actual 8-bit computers didn't have fonts that bad). The main thing that it gives you over PICO-8 (besides being free) is the ability to use different languages. I don't think there is anything particularly retro about Lua -- it didn't even exist in the 8-bit era these fantasy consoles are nostalgic for. There's a (paid) fantasy console on steam that uses BASIC, which is at least period faithful.

hypertele-Xii 5y ago

There's nothing awesome about being artificially hamstrung with the kinds of games you can make. PICO-8's limits are crippling. You are required to perform an absurd amount of hacking which, while of interest to some types, completely bypasses the integrated tools which are supposed to help you make games. It's a fatally schizophrenic tool.

abdulmuhaimin 5y ago
Fatally schizophrenic tool?? More like lovely schizophrenic tool. Not everyone need/want to get lost in a tonnes of features.
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  It's not a "feature" to have no limits.
pull_my_finger 5y ago
If you've spent time in the community you'll see different types of equally interesting projects. Lots of games that are able to provide you a fair amount of entertainment or some that really push the limits of what you'd _think_ is possible. The constraints really help you with scope creep as well as you have to decide what's important to the game. Brief selection of some projects things that I personally enjoyed[1] [1]: https://hastebin.com/raw/xopurataji https://hastebin.com/raw/xopurataji
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  > different types of equally interesting projects And they all have one thing in common: They hit the limits and were unable to progress.
otikik 5y ago
I wholeheartedly disagree. Too many options can be a bad thing, that has been proven and there's plenty of literature about it, for example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice I remember when the first thing you had to do in order to program a videogame was creating your own TIFF or BMP parser. That's ok if you enjoy that sort of thing, but it gets in the way when what you want is a working videogame, not a tech demo. That kind of limitation, frankly, sucked. On the other hand nowadays the problem is the opposite: there's so many ways to do stuff. So many options. Which engine. Which language. What graphics pipeline. Which Entity-Component System, etc. The trouble is that we are back to the previous problem. The tech decisions get in the way of the creative process. What Pico8 does right is limiting the amount of tech-related decisions you have to make. That frees mental cycles in order to be creative and build something that works. I know from the get go that I've got 8x8 16-color bitmaps, and that's it. No time wasted parsing TIFFs, and also no time wasted choosing tech. You start and go. All that said, I don't think Pico-8 is for everyone. If you feel restricted by it, perhaps you will be more comfortable with other engines. I program games as a hobby an I am very limited on the amount of time I can dedicate to it. I tend to make small 1-evening prototypes that are never finished. Pico-8 is awesome for that. It's definitely awesome for me, at least.
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  > What Pico8 does right is limiting the amount of tech-related decisions you have to make. How is it a tech-related decision if I want to add another sprite, but can't, because PICO-8 decided for me that I'm only allowed to have a specific amount? It's completely arbitrary and literally stops a game's development! That's not what a game development tool is supposed to do!
  - otikik 5y ago
    You are saying it as if it happens suddenly and by surprise. Those limits are presented since you open the tool. A screwdriver isn't "good" at putting nails down. It would be pointless to say that it's not a good screwdriver because it doesn't drive nails. Pico-8 is like that. It only allows a certain amount of everything: sprites, sounds, colors, even program tokens. I must point out that it is possible to drive a nail using a screwdriver. You hold the screwdriver from the metal end, and repeatedly hit the nail head with the handle. It's a bit awkward. (But also sort of impressive. Like the people that do 3D stuff with Pico-8). There are options out there to go around most of the limits if you really want to. You might have to sacrifice something. You need to be creative, the same as with the screwdriver. I actually enjoy that.