8 ms·

I think the word "hacking" has been used to describe computer crime for a while now. Too bad for the other kinds of hackers I guess!

kragen 5y ago
The word "Jew" has been used to describe loan-sharking for quite a while, too, but I will never declare, "Too bad for the other kinds of Jews I guess!"—because at times the result has been very bad for them indeed. As it will be for us. There are three major differences between these cases: 1. Bigotry against Jewish people goes back 1500 to 3000 years, although during much of that time other words, like "Israelite", were used; the Judeans were only a small part of ancient Israel. The word "hacker", by contrast, only goes back 55 or 60 years, and this sort of pejorative news article about "hackers" only goes back 35 years; although in earlier times sometimes other words were used to mean the same thing, such as "longhair", "philosopher", "freethinker", "egghead", or (as in the case of the great hacker Galileo) "heretic". During the Christianization of England a common term was "wicca", meaning roughly "shaman" or "wise man", which is the origin of our modern English word "witch"—the original word had two gendered versions, and the feminization of the role goes back to the time of Malleus Maleficarum, a book so misogynistic I thought modern feminists were exaggerating until I read it. 2. A "hacker" is not just someone who believes in the value system of hackerdom; it is someone who exemplifies it. The Jewish equivalent is "Tzadik", the title originally given to the mythical figure Joseph, or "Ḥasīd". The Christian equivalent might be "saint". The Rambam said, "One whose merit surpasses his iniquity is a tzadik." 3. The Jewish people are not only a community of believers in a value system, like hackers and aspiring hackers, but also an ethnicity. To some extent you can stop being a hacker, but as in the case of converting from Judaism, that may not be enough to get you untied from the stake. It is probably not a coincidence that many of the greatest hackers have been Jewish; the two value systems have a lot in common.
- jerf 5y ago
  Who is "us"? Basically nobody calls themselves hackers in the old positive sense. The current title of Hacker News is nearly a fossil word. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_word
  - kragen 5y ago
    As you're well aware, the "basically nobody" you're dismissing includes many of the founders of the most important tech companies and social movements today, plus the guy who built the website you're posting this on. More to the point, though, if a prosecutor starts investigating you for "hacking" because you linked to your own website from your profile on this website (with records in archive.org going back to 01999, including your legal name, your wedding photos, etc., alongside a link to the "Hack The Planet" weblog and statements about things you've said on here), the fact that you protest that you "don't call yourself a hacker" won't cut much ice. "Hackers" as a class are being blamed for a pandemic of extortion that is seriously endangering the society you live in, much like "communists" in the early 20th century, though in that case it was a pandemic of violently overthrowing governments. You may be too young to have lived through that but you can read about it.
    - Aicy 5y ago
      No one is going to be arrested for being associated with the word hacker alone with no accompanying crime Unless you can find any evidence of this happening you're just being ridiculous.
- wk_end 5y ago
  You very well may be Jewish, I’m certainly not speaking for all Jews here, but as a Jewish hacker (in your preferred sense) I find the comparison you’re drawing and victimhood status you’re claiming (as a hacker) here both absurd and offensive.
seoaeu 5y ago
It isn't that clear to me that the "breaking into computer systems" definition even initially started out separate from the building things definition. My impression from what I've read, is that there was one hacker community with some members interested in breaking into systems for some harmless fun and others more interested in other aspects. Over time, the breaking into systems folks became increasingly less harmless and drifted away from the rest of the community
- kragen 5y ago
  Breaking into computer systems certainly can be "a playful use of the intellect" or "a feat the world experts in a field thought to be impossible", so it certainly can be hacking. Designing pesticides can be science, too (my second example), and certainly nothing prevents freethinkers from employing child labor (my third example)—there might even be a causal link if the local Church is prohibiting child labor. And if you're brewing up some pesticides, you might look up to scientists and think you're a scientist, even if you're really not. But hopefully you can see that it would be appalling to write an article entitled "Is Science the Next Threat to Our Food Supply?" about a pesticide disaster, saying, "Scientists sprayed pesticides on a farm, poisoning hundreds of people who ate the food;" and that this article isn't talking about anything you or I would recognize as "hacking" or "hackers". At the point where you're extorting ransom there's nothing playful about it anymore, and it's very likely that the vulnerabilities being exploited were already known. By virtue of self-identifying as "a hacker", or at least a would-be hacker, you are getting into the line of fire. So you should stand up against it.
  - Kiboneu 5y ago
    Changing a definition of a word is a big ask. As wbazant wrote, hacking has originally started as describing computer crime. The scales for what was considered computer crime has shifted quite a bit in addition to the term itself expanding. Many of us deal with this by inferring what is meant by context. I've been surrounded by hackers, and none of them caught legal or social flack for being called a hacker in public. I also don't see people getting turned off from doing computer security or other computer work because of hacking being used to describe computer crime.
diffeomorphism 5y ago
The website you are posting this on is called "hacker news", which as far as I can tell does not refer to the computer crime meaning. So when posting on HN clarifying what you mean by that word seems very reasonable.
- Fnoord 5y ago
  Context. Sometimes requires reading more than title (which on HN is supposed to be verbatim). I do get the agitation. I have it as well with 'crypto'. But we need to acknowledge trends/hypes influence our language.

kragen 5y ago

The word "Jew" has been used to describe loan-sharking for quite a while, too, but I will never declare, "Too bad for the other kinds of Jews I guess!"—because at times the result has been very bad for them indeed. As it will be for us. There are three major differences between these cases: 1. Bigotry against Jewish people goes back 1500 to 3000 years, although during much of that time other words, like "Israelite", were used; the Judeans were only a small part of ancient Israel. The word "hacker", by contrast, only goes back 55 or 60 years, and this sort of pejorative news article about "hackers" only goes back 35 years; although in earlier times sometimes other words were used to mean the same thing, such as "longhair", "philosopher", "freethinker", "egghead", or (as in the case of the great hacker Galileo) "heretic". During the Christianization of England a common term was "wicca", meaning roughly "shaman" or "wise man", which is the origin of our modern English word "witch"—the original word had two gendered versions, and the feminization of the role goes back to the time of Malleus Maleficarum, a book so misogynistic I thought modern feminists were exaggerating until I read it. 2. A "hacker" is not just someone who believes in the value system of hackerdom; it is someone who exemplifies it. The Jewish equivalent is "Tzadik", the title originally given to the mythical figure Joseph, or "Ḥasīd". The Christian equivalent might be "saint". The Rambam said, "One whose merit surpasses his iniquity is a tzadik." 3. The Jewish people are not only a community of believers in a value system, like hackers and aspiring hackers, but also an ethnicity. To some extent you can stop being a hacker, but as in the case of converting from Judaism, that may not be enough to get you untied from the stake. It is probably not a coincidence that many of the greatest hackers have been Jewish; the two value systems have a lot in common.

jerf 5y ago
Who is "us"? Basically nobody calls themselves hackers in the old positive sense. The current title of Hacker News is nearly a fossil word. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_word
- kragen 5y ago
  As you're well aware, the "basically nobody" you're dismissing includes many of the founders of the most important tech companies and social movements today, plus the guy who built the website you're posting this on. More to the point, though, if a prosecutor starts investigating you for "hacking" because you linked to your own website from your profile on this website (with records in archive.org going back to 01999, including your legal name, your wedding photos, etc., alongside a link to the "Hack The Planet" weblog and statements about things you've said on here), the fact that you protest that you "don't call yourself a hacker" won't cut much ice. "Hackers" as a class are being blamed for a pandemic of extortion that is seriously endangering the society you live in, much like "communists" in the early 20th century, though in that case it was a pandemic of violently overthrowing governments. You may be too young to have lived through that but you can read about it.
  - Aicy 5y ago
    No one is going to be arrested for being associated with the word hacker alone with no accompanying crime Unless you can find any evidence of this happening you're just being ridiculous.
wk_end 5y ago
You very well may be Jewish, I’m certainly not speaking for all Jews here, but as a Jewish hacker (in your preferred sense) I find the comparison you’re drawing and victimhood status you’re claiming (as a hacker) here both absurd and offensive.

seoaeu 5y ago

It isn't that clear to me that the "breaking into computer systems" definition even initially started out separate from the building things definition. My impression from what I've read, is that there was one hacker community with some members interested in breaking into systems for some harmless fun and others more interested in other aspects. Over time, the breaking into systems folks became increasingly less harmless and drifted away from the rest of the community

kragen 5y ago
Breaking into computer systems certainly can be "a playful use of the intellect" or "a feat the world experts in a field thought to be impossible", so it certainly can be hacking. Designing pesticides can be science, too (my second example), and certainly nothing prevents freethinkers from employing child labor (my third example)—there might even be a causal link if the local Church is prohibiting child labor. And if you're brewing up some pesticides, you might look up to scientists and think you're a scientist, even if you're really not. But hopefully you can see that it would be appalling to write an article entitled "Is Science the Next Threat to Our Food Supply?" about a pesticide disaster, saying, "Scientists sprayed pesticides on a farm, poisoning hundreds of people who ate the food;" and that this article isn't talking about anything you or I would recognize as "hacking" or "hackers". At the point where you're extorting ransom there's nothing playful about it anymore, and it's very likely that the vulnerabilities being exploited were already known. By virtue of self-identifying as "a hacker", or at least a would-be hacker, you are getting into the line of fire. So you should stand up against it.
- Kiboneu 5y ago
  Changing a definition of a word is a big ask. As wbazant wrote, hacking has originally started as describing computer crime. The scales for what was considered computer crime has shifted quite a bit in addition to the term itself expanding. Many of us deal with this by inferring what is meant by context. I've been surrounded by hackers, and none of them caught legal or social flack for being called a hacker in public. I also don't see people getting turned off from doing computer security or other computer work because of hacking being used to describe computer crime.

diffeomorphism 5y ago

The website you are posting this on is called "hacker news", which as far as I can tell does not refer to the computer crime meaning. So when posting on HN clarifying what you mean by that word seems very reasonable.

Fnoord 5y ago
Context. Sometimes requires reading more than title (which on HN is supposed to be verbatim). I do get the agitation. I have it as well with 'crypto'. But we need to acknowledge trends/hypes influence our language.