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>Even if that is accurate(source?) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming >quantity applied says nothing

>Even if that is accurate(source?) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming >quantity applied says nothing about the danger of the substance to humans. Quantity is the deciding factor when talking about toxicity to humans. If I've misunderstood your comment, please correct me.

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
Let’s just take one example: Sodium Bicarbonate, commonly known as Baking Soda works well as an efficient and cost effective fungicide and insecticide. It is actually registered with the EPA for use against certain plant fungi, powdery mildew. As a foliar spray used in the garden, it works wonders against fungus and bugs. There’s approximately no amount of sodium bicarbonate a person could reasonably ingest, in this context or any other, that would be either immediately harmful or prove to be detrimental long term. You’d have to really try.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  Might apply to vinegar, too, another insecticide, although I don’t know if consuming huge quantities of vinegar is bad for you. I’m guessing not as bad as the same quantity of Round-up or a variety of other synthetics.
  - ta988 5y ago
    Many plants would die quickly if you use vinegar and it gets in the soil, same with baling soda. Thats stuff that will work for house plants but not really in a field unless you have a lot of people with tiny brushes...
- lathyrus_long 5y ago
  The point is that if a product is twice as toxic to humans (or bees, or some other off-target species) but four times as toxic to the target pest, then the grower can use a quarter as much and the adverse impact is half. The relevant factor is that "therapeutic index", not toxicity per gram. By that standard some organic pesticides are better than the conventional average (e.g. azadirachtin), while others are worse (e.g. pyrethrin, or rotenone until it was banned). Also, please don't take gardening advice from whatever website you're quoting. Sodium bicarbonate is not an effective insecticide. It's a marginally effective fungicide, though potassium bicarbonate would be less toxic to the plants. It's indeed pretty safe for humans, but the dose makes the poison even there and people have died from sodium bicarbonate overdose: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24734306.2020.1734717 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24734306.2020.1... Unfortunately consumer gardening advice seems to be the domain of SEO specialists, not gardening specialists. University extension offices publish high-quality information with much less visibility, like: https://www2.ipm.ucanr.edu/ https://www2.ipm.ucanr.edu/
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Sodium bicarbonate isn't actually used in farming like this. Copper pesticides[1] are though, and they are not without their own downsides and consequences. This article touches on pesticide use in organic farming[2]. I like organic farming, but a lot of what passes for "organic" in the US is far from ideal and feels more like regulator-sanctioned scam. I'd feel more confident buying organic produce if there were stricter guidelines and enforcement. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_pesticide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_pesticide [2] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogsscientificamericancomscience-sushi20110718mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogs...

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago

Let’s just take one example: Sodium Bicarbonate, commonly known as Baking Soda works well as an efficient and cost effective fungicide and insecticide. It is actually registered with the EPA for use against certain plant fungi, powdery mildew. As a foliar spray used in the garden, it works wonders against fungus and bugs. There’s approximately no amount of sodium bicarbonate a person could reasonably ingest, in this context or any other, that would be either immediately harmful or prove to be detrimental long term. You’d have to really try.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
Might apply to vinegar, too, another insecticide, although I don’t know if consuming huge quantities of vinegar is bad for you. I’m guessing not as bad as the same quantity of Round-up or a variety of other synthetics.
- ta988 5y ago
  Many plants would die quickly if you use vinegar and it gets in the soil, same with baling soda. Thats stuff that will work for house plants but not really in a field unless you have a lot of people with tiny brushes...
lathyrus_long 5y ago
The point is that if a product is twice as toxic to humans (or bees, or some other off-target species) but four times as toxic to the target pest, then the grower can use a quarter as much and the adverse impact is half. The relevant factor is that "therapeutic index", not toxicity per gram. By that standard some organic pesticides are better than the conventional average (e.g. azadirachtin), while others are worse (e.g. pyrethrin, or rotenone until it was banned). Also, please don't take gardening advice from whatever website you're quoting. Sodium bicarbonate is not an effective insecticide. It's a marginally effective fungicide, though potassium bicarbonate would be less toxic to the plants. It's indeed pretty safe for humans, but the dose makes the poison even there and people have died from sodium bicarbonate overdose: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24734306.2020.1734717 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24734306.2020.1... Unfortunately consumer gardening advice seems to be the domain of SEO specialists, not gardening specialists. University extension offices publish high-quality information with much less visibility, like: https://www2.ipm.ucanr.edu/ https://www2.ipm.ucanr.edu/
heavyset_go 5y ago
Sodium bicarbonate isn't actually used in farming like this. Copper pesticides[1] are though, and they are not without their own downsides and consequences. This article touches on pesticide use in organic farming[2]. I like organic farming, but a lot of what passes for "organic" in the US is far from ideal and feels more like regulator-sanctioned scam. I'd feel more confident buying organic produce if there were stricter guidelines and enforcement. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_pesticide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_pesticide [2] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogsscientificamericancomscience-sushi20110718mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogs...