5 ms·

To extend it to covid, the vaccine doesn’t fully prevent transmission either. It reduces it (likely, I don’t think we’ve seen a robust study in this department)

To extend it to covid, the vaccine doesn’t fully prevent transmission either. It reduces it (likely, I don’t think we’ve seen a robust study in this department), but since it’s not enough to reach herd immunity this point is moot The argument has now become you’re taking up hospital beds because you didn’t get the vaccine. The same logic applies to not wearing a helmet. And to take it further: are we ok with unvaccinated covid patients taking resources from those not wearing safety helmets, or vice versa?

isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
The rate at which people catch covid and get hospitalized is incomparably higher to the rate that people are getting brain injuries from riding a bike. You can use the same "philosophical experiment" to ban being fat or drinking alcohol.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  > to ban being fat or drinking alcohol. No, you can't. At least not unless you ignore research and still believe that weight gain and addiction are purely choices and can be morally condemned. See e.g. Addiction is a brain disease, and it matters: Leshner, A. I. (1997). Addiction is a brain disease, and it matters. Science (New York, N.Y.), 278(5335), 45–47. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.278.5335.45 https://doi.org/10.1126/science.278.5335.45
  - bradlys 5y ago
    Your amount of social interaction is also a choice that will dictate your ability to get Covid. Should be obvious that this is comparable to your example from the lockdowns that have been ineffective.
    - cratermoon 5y ago
      > the lockdowns that have been ineffective In the US they were ineffective half-measures with little to no real teeth. In other countries they mitigated the pandemic within weeks by having lockdowns that sustained the people and organizations affected and were strict enough to mean something. Saying "amount of social interaction is also a choice" is only true when the lockdowns were performative and the choice was given. And now the US, which is less than 5% of the world population, accounts 14% of all deaths due to COVID-19, not counting excess deaths.
      - bradlys 5y ago
        My point was more about social interaction - not the lockdowns. It's an example of how social interaction is clearly a choice as much as being fat, drinking, cycling, etc. Almost everything is a choice but we have a system setup to incentivize people to do certain actions more than others... making certain choices easier to take on than others. That's the problem I'm having with your argument. Present better and easier options for people and they will take them.
        cratermoon 5y ago
        > being fat That is not a choice. The causes of obesity are complex.
- rajin444 5y ago
  That’s a valid point. How did you decide which rate crossed the line? A defined rate is needed to enforce this fairly. To get ahead of this, I’m probably going to respond we should focus on combatting obesity over anything you can propose. The rate it’s consuming both hospital and other resources dwarfs nearly any other condition aside from old age.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago

The rate at which people catch covid and get hospitalized is incomparably higher to the rate that people are getting brain injuries from riding a bike. You can use the same "philosophical experiment" to ban being fat or drinking alcohol.

cratermoon 5y ago
> to ban being fat or drinking alcohol. No, you can't. At least not unless you ignore research and still believe that weight gain and addiction are purely choices and can be morally condemned. See e.g. Addiction is a brain disease, and it matters: Leshner, A. I. (1997). Addiction is a brain disease, and it matters. Science (New York, N.Y.), 278(5335), 45–47. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.278.5335.45 https://doi.org/10.1126/science.278.5335.45
- bradlys 5y ago
  Your amount of social interaction is also a choice that will dictate your ability to get Covid. Should be obvious that this is comparable to your example from the lockdowns that have been ineffective.
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    > the lockdowns that have been ineffective In the US they were ineffective half-measures with little to no real teeth. In other countries they mitigated the pandemic within weeks by having lockdowns that sustained the people and organizations affected and were strict enough to mean something. Saying "amount of social interaction is also a choice" is only true when the lockdowns were performative and the choice was given. And now the US, which is less than 5% of the world population, accounts 14% of all deaths due to COVID-19, not counting excess deaths.
    - bradlys 5y ago
      My point was more about social interaction - not the lockdowns. It's an example of how social interaction is clearly a choice as much as being fat, drinking, cycling, etc. Almost everything is a choice but we have a system setup to incentivize people to do certain actions more than others... making certain choices easier to take on than others. That's the problem I'm having with your argument. Present better and easier options for people and they will take them.
      - cratermoon 5y ago
        > being fat That is not a choice. The causes of obesity are complex.
rajin444 5y ago
That’s a valid point. How did you decide which rate crossed the line? A defined rate is needed to enforce this fairly. To get ahead of this, I’m probably going to respond we should focus on combatting obesity over anything you can propose. The rate it’s consuming both hospital and other resources dwarfs nearly any other condition aside from old age.