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I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is ac

I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. Outside of that is an anomaly reserved for those at the absolute apex of power. This power was accumulated by being incredibly adaptable and observant. Both of these qualities made our ancestors very very good at killing things.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. Barbaric literally means primitive and unsophisticated. (Sophistication referring to knowledge and culture.) When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state. That might make the statement "nature is barbaric" seem tautologic. But your reaction exposes its meaning. The natural state of things, the barbaric state, is on we strive to escape. It is painful and suffering. Sometimes cruel. Enough to have motivated our species to seek to not be subject to it. To be free of the "natural order of things" by developing our knowledge, culture and civilization. As you mention, this often involved killing. But killing need not be painful and cruel.
- samhw 5y ago
  > Barbaric literally means primitive and unsophisticated This makes for the foundation of a nice story, but no, that's not what 'barbaric' means. It's not what you'll find in any dictionary, and it's not what the root of the word is. Barbaros, in Greek, referred to non-Greeks, with an early connotation of foreignness. It picked up a connotation of cruelty and savageness as early as the Romans. Any dictionary since then will give a primary meaning of cruelty and savagery, not just 'primitive and unsophisticated'. (Finally, my eight years of Ancient Greek at school comes in slightly handy!)
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Any dictionary since then will give a primary meaning of cruelty and savagery, not just 'primitive and unsophisticated' And how would those dictionaries define savagery? Webster's first entries are "not domesticated or under human control" and "lacking the restraints normal to civilized human beings" [1]. The penultimate comment works with savage and cruel substituted for primitive and unsophisticated. (Though didn't know the etymology. An honest thank you for that.) [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/savage https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/savage
    - samhw 5y ago
      > And how would those dictionaries define savagery? I mean, a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one: https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savagery https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savagery https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savage https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savage Respectfully, I think you're hunting down odd-one-out definitions that support your theory - not necessarily consciously. All of these words connote cruelty. The overwhelming majority of dictionary definitions bear that out.
      - vore 5y ago
        I don't think arguing about the semantics of "barbarism" really takes away from the original overarching argument: nature is primitive and cruel but humans in general at least try to alleviate that kind of cruelty seen in non-human nature.
        samhw 5y ago
        > takes away from the original overarching argument: nature is primitive and cruel but humans in general at least try to alleviate that kind of cruelty seen in non-human nature And if that were the only claim they made, that would be fine. I just happen to dislike people dishonestly twisting facts – in this case, misrepresenting the meaning of a word by cherry-picking some recherché fringe definition and making it out to be the primary meaning – to make their argument sound more impressive.
- simorley 5y ago
  > When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state. No we don't. We generally use barbaric to describe people. Barbaric comes from barbarian. Which was originally used to describe non-greeks, non-romans, foreigners, etc. It started out as a slur. Philistine is a synonym for barbarian. https://www.etymonline.com/word/barbarian https://www.etymonline.com/word/barbarian > Enough to have motivated our species to seek to not be subject to it. You act like civilization was something our species strived for rather than had imposed on us. Civilization was predominantly built on slavery and exploitation. The vast majority of humanity suffered under civilization. Humanity no more clamored for civilization than livestock clamored for industrial farms.
  - samhw 5y ago
    Yup, you're entirely correct. I'm disappointed to see your point downvoted. I thought HN was above believing in arguments just because of their elegance, even if that elegance is accomplished by distorting the facts.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Because it is. > Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. That’s also what people describe as “barbarism”, generally. So, you seem to agree that nature is substantively barbaric, but be confused that people describe it that way.
- ptr2voidStar 5y ago
  Very aptly put.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. Barbaric literally means primitive and unsophisticated. (Sophistication referring to knowledge and culture.) When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state. That might make the statement "nature is barbaric" seem tautologic. But your reaction exposes its meaning. The natural state of things, the barbaric state, is on we strive to escape. It is painful and suffering. Sometimes cruel. Enough to have motivated our species to seek to not be subject to it. To be free of the "natural order of things" by developing our knowledge, culture and civilization. As you mention, this often involved killing. But killing need not be painful and cruel.

samhw 5y ago
> Barbaric literally means primitive and unsophisticated This makes for the foundation of a nice story, but no, that's not what 'barbaric' means. It's not what you'll find in any dictionary, and it's not what the root of the word is. Barbaros, in Greek, referred to non-Greeks, with an early connotation of foreignness. It picked up a connotation of cruelty and savageness as early as the Romans. Any dictionary since then will give a primary meaning of cruelty and savagery, not just 'primitive and unsophisticated'. (Finally, my eight years of Ancient Greek at school comes in slightly handy!)
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Any dictionary since then will give a primary meaning of cruelty and savagery, not just 'primitive and unsophisticated' And how would those dictionaries define savagery? Webster's first entries are "not domesticated or under human control" and "lacking the restraints normal to civilized human beings" [1]. The penultimate comment works with savage and cruel substituted for primitive and unsophisticated. (Though didn't know the etymology. An honest thank you for that.) [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/savage https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/savage
  - samhw 5y ago
    > And how would those dictionaries define savagery? I mean, a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one: https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savagery https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savagery https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savage https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savage Respectfully, I think you're hunting down odd-one-out definitions that support your theory - not necessarily consciously. All of these words connote cruelty. The overwhelming majority of dictionary definitions bear that out.
    - vore 5y ago
      I don't think arguing about the semantics of "barbarism" really takes away from the original overarching argument: nature is primitive and cruel but humans in general at least try to alleviate that kind of cruelty seen in non-human nature.
      - samhw 5y ago
        > takes away from the original overarching argument: nature is primitive and cruel but humans in general at least try to alleviate that kind of cruelty seen in non-human nature And if that were the only claim they made, that would be fine. I just happen to dislike people dishonestly twisting facts – in this case, misrepresenting the meaning of a word by cherry-picking some recherché fringe definition and making it out to be the primary meaning – to make their argument sound more impressive.
simorley 5y ago
> When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state. No we don't. We generally use barbaric to describe people. Barbaric comes from barbarian. Which was originally used to describe non-greeks, non-romans, foreigners, etc. It started out as a slur. Philistine is a synonym for barbarian. https://www.etymonline.com/word/barbarian https://www.etymonline.com/word/barbarian > Enough to have motivated our species to seek to not be subject to it. You act like civilization was something our species strived for rather than had imposed on us. Civilization was predominantly built on slavery and exploitation. The vast majority of humanity suffered under civilization. Humanity no more clamored for civilization than livestock clamored for industrial farms.
- samhw 5y ago
  Yup, you're entirely correct. I'm disappointed to see your point downvoted. I thought HN was above believing in arguments just because of their elegance, even if that elegance is accomplished by distorting the facts.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Because it is. > Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things. That’s also what people describe as “barbarism”, generally. So, you seem to agree that nature is substantively barbaric, but be confused that people describe it that way.

ptr2voidStar 5y ago
Very aptly put.