5 ms·

I don't want to live in a region where my neighbors just watch me get robbed...

rewma 5y ago
> I don't want to live in a region where my neighbors just watch me get robbed... What do you expect a neighbor to do regarding a violent gang that blows up a door, takes 5min to do its thing, and proceeds to vanish in the night? Personally, I take way more than 5min to get up the bed.
- lazide 5y ago
  I think some folks have this romantic ideal of going out with a double barrel shotgun, making an obnoxiously loud cocking noise (que movie clip), and upon seeing them, the bad guys flee and they get a medal and the keys to the city. Which hey, maybe somewhere? But yes, it is not the most likely outcome, or frankly a good idea to try, even if legal in your particular jurisdiction. Ideally response is either 1) it’s defended enough it’s not worth their time, or 2) evidence is recorded enough the perpetrators can be identified, then folks track them down and arrest them when they aren’t prepared for resistance and on guard and there is less of a chance of someone getting shot or blown up in a fight. Because that is a incredible amount of paperwork.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    The amount this is romanticized seems to correlate with the gender breakdown of the website and the prominence of libertarian impulses.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      I thought mutual security insurance was the libertarian thing
7steps2much 5y ago
And instead the neighbors should have grabbed his kitchen knife and went down there to face the robbers that got explosives? If something like this happens call the cops and watch so that you can act as a witness if necessary. Not much else you can do.
- debarshri 5y ago
  I was one the witness in this case. Dutch investigators are very nice, innovative with techniques and smart.
csomar 5y ago
If the robbery involved an unmanned store, it is unreasonable to get anybody but the police involved. No human life is worth any amount of goods.
debarshri 5y ago
Three things - 1. When a person charges you with an industrial hammer, Run. 2. If in case, I over power the person and harm the person. I am liable for the medical bill of the person I harmed. 3. Offices here are most likely insured.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > If in case, I over power the person and harm the person. I am liable for the medical bill of the person I harmed Laws like this seem insane. I'm strongly of the opinion that if you are the one choosing to attack someone else, you accept all risk and responsibility for the encounter. If the victim responds with lethal force in bonafide self-defense, then :shrug:.
  - NegativeLatency 5y ago
    Since the original person was only stealing you’ll be the one potentially instigating person on person violence if you stepped in. Stuff especially expensive stuff owned by a business is generally insured (like in the case of the computers here)
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      I think it's unreasonable to expect a victim to assume that the assailant won't harm them. Moreover, the victim has a right to their property and safety--it's insane that we would put people in a situation where they have to choose between loss of property/safety to preserve the safety of our assailant. The assailant has all of the agency in the situation--only the assailant can choose to avert the situation--so the assailant should bear all of the responsibility for the encounter. If they're killed in their enterprise, so be it. Many disingenuously respond to this with some variation of, "but theft doesn't deserve the death penalty!" Of course, I'm not advocating for the death penalty for thieves--defense isn't about justice or sorting out what anyone deserves, it's about preserving one's rights (including one's right to life). How we charge thieves in courts is a different matter.
    - lazide 5y ago
dspillett 5y ago
I wouldn't want an innocent bystander risking their life stupidly to protect my property. Real life is not like TV land.
- twofornone 5y ago
  That's a rather privileged take. Businesses are people's livelihoods and even when insured, insurance doesn't necessarily cover all tangible and intangible costs, if it covers anything at all. Not to mention rate increases. Property is an extension of person, because we spend portions of our finite lives turning effort into tangible goods. The problem with the "human life is worth less than property" attitude is that there is always a contingent of the population which is not hesitant to take advantage of such kindness. Especially when you start mixing cultures. The only deterrent that such people recognize is the threat of violence. This isn't justification for extreme punishment legal punishment, but it is moral justification for deadly violence in immediate response to ongoing theft of the output of one's labor. Otherwise you are sending a message that people are essentially free to take from you and your community, because arrest and prison are not a sufficient deterrent for some groups of people.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    If you work for an hourly wage, theft of your property in a very real sense is theft of hours of your life. I think you have it exactly right with "privileged take". Salaried with PTO and direct deposit makes it feel like money just magically appears in your bank account.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Your property? It's the owners property. And if you really cared about savings hours of life for people working hourly wage, you'd be in favor of increased crackdowns on white collar crime over theft. More money is stolen from hourly workers in the form of wage theft than from robbery.
      - 5y ago

> I don't want to live in a region where my neighbors just watch me get robbed... What do you expect a neighbor to do regarding a violent gang that blows up a door, takes 5min to do its thing, and proceeds to vanish in the night? Personally, I take way more than 5min to get up the bed.

lazide 5y ago
I think some folks have this romantic ideal of going out with a double barrel shotgun, making an obnoxiously loud cocking noise (que movie clip), and upon seeing them, the bad guys flee and they get a medal and the keys to the city. Which hey, maybe somewhere? But yes, it is not the most likely outcome, or frankly a good idea to try, even if legal in your particular jurisdiction. Ideally response is either 1) it’s defended enough it’s not worth their time, or 2) evidence is recorded enough the perpetrators can be identified, then folks track them down and arrest them when they aren’t prepared for resistance and on guard and there is less of a chance of someone getting shot or blown up in a fight. Because that is a incredible amount of paperwork.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  The amount this is romanticized seems to correlate with the gender breakdown of the website and the prominence of libertarian impulses.
  - emteycz 5y ago
    I thought mutual security insurance was the libertarian thing

7steps2much 5y ago

And instead the neighbors should have grabbed his kitchen knife and went down there to face the robbers that got explosives? If something like this happens call the cops and watch so that you can act as a witness if necessary. Not much else you can do.

debarshri 5y ago
I was one the witness in this case. Dutch investigators are very nice, innovative with techniques and smart.

csomar 5y ago

If the robbery involved an unmanned store, it is unreasonable to get anybody but the police involved. No human life is worth any amount of goods.

debarshri 5y ago

Three things - 1. When a person charges you with an industrial hammer, Run. 2. If in case, I over power the person and harm the person. I am liable for the medical bill of the person I harmed. 3. Offices here are most likely insured.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> If in case, I over power the person and harm the person. I am liable for the medical bill of the person I harmed Laws like this seem insane. I'm strongly of the opinion that if you are the one choosing to attack someone else, you accept all risk and responsibility for the encounter. If the victim responds with lethal force in bonafide self-defense, then :shrug:.
- NegativeLatency 5y ago
  Since the original person was only stealing you’ll be the one potentially instigating person on person violence if you stepped in. Stuff especially expensive stuff owned by a business is generally insured (like in the case of the computers here)
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I think it's unreasonable to expect a victim to assume that the assailant won't harm them. Moreover, the victim has a right to their property and safety--it's insane that we would put people in a situation where they have to choose between loss of property/safety to preserve the safety of our assailant. The assailant has all of the agency in the situation--only the assailant can choose to avert the situation--so the assailant should bear all of the responsibility for the encounter. If they're killed in their enterprise, so be it. Many disingenuously respond to this with some variation of, "but theft doesn't deserve the death penalty!" Of course, I'm not advocating for the death penalty for thieves--defense isn't about justice or sorting out what anyone deserves, it's about preserving one's rights (including one's right to life). How we charge thieves in courts is a different matter.
  - lazide 5y ago

dspillett 5y ago

I wouldn't want an innocent bystander risking their life stupidly to protect my property. Real life is not like TV land.

twofornone 5y ago
That's a rather privileged take. Businesses are people's livelihoods and even when insured, insurance doesn't necessarily cover all tangible and intangible costs, if it covers anything at all. Not to mention rate increases. Property is an extension of person, because we spend portions of our finite lives turning effort into tangible goods. The problem with the "human life is worth less than property" attitude is that there is always a contingent of the population which is not hesitant to take advantage of such kindness. Especially when you start mixing cultures. The only deterrent that such people recognize is the threat of violence. This isn't justification for extreme punishment legal punishment, but it is moral justification for deadly violence in immediate response to ongoing theft of the output of one's labor. Otherwise you are sending a message that people are essentially free to take from you and your community, because arrest and prison are not a sufficient deterrent for some groups of people.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  If you work for an hourly wage, theft of your property in a very real sense is theft of hours of your life. I think you have it exactly right with "privileged take". Salaried with PTO and direct deposit makes it feel like money just magically appears in your bank account.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Your property? It's the owners property. And if you really cared about savings hours of life for people working hourly wage, you'd be in favor of increased crackdowns on white collar crime over theft. More money is stolen from hourly workers in the form of wage theft than from robbery.
    - 5y ago