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The other types of engineering the author refers to that are subject to certification involve the physical safety of other people. But still, plenty of softwar

The other types of engineering the author refers to that are subject to certification involve the physical safety of other people. But still, plenty of software development roles are subject to professional liability, particularly where the work is linked to people’s physical safety. As a contractor or director of a company providing software services, I’ve been required to have professional indemnity and public liability insurance, and part of that involves verification that I’m sufficiently educated and experienced to be competent enough to mitigate the risk. It doesn’t make sense for there to be industry-wide liability standards, as roles and risks vary so much, and certification comes at a huge cost. It’s absurd that the same standards of liability would apply to an aviation software job vs the part time IT guy at said sub-20-person office whose responsibilities are limited to setting up MS ActiveDirectory and keeping the printers running. This is a rant about a non-problem.

austincheney 5y ago
> It’s absurd that the same standards of liability would apply to an aviation software job vs the part time IT guy While I agree, the reality is that the part time IT guy is generally far more certified than the high paid software developer, which I find far more absurd.
- tomhoward 5y ago
  > generally far more certified Hardly. Any software developer working on systems that risk people’s safety - eg avionics, automotive systems, medical devices, traffic control systems - would be required to have advanced university qualifications. Google at least used to require all its software engineers to have masters degrees. Do they still? People I’ve know to work in software dev jobs at Microsoft and even mid-level companies like TripAdvisor and SurveyMonkey have PhDs. Other tech companies like IBM and Accenture sure would require at least bachelor degrees. But sure, plenty of software developers have no formal qualifications or liability. And they’re not working on stuff that directly risks people’s physical safety.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    That completely misses the point. Some developers have some certifications to cover employer liability. You cannot be a software developer for the US federal government without at least a Security+ certification, but this is rare among developers. In most of my giant corporate employers you didn’t need even a bachelors degree. Regardless of industry or employer you cannot get hired as a help desk IT guy without a laundry list of certifications. It is a night and day difference.
    - tomhoward 5y ago
      You said you agreed with my main point so I probably should have left it at that, but for the record: The OP says: Most organizations seem to hire their first part-time IT person before they reach 20 employees. When that first IT person is replaced, the new IT person bores everybody with complaints about how "totally incompetent" the first person must have been, and, usually, is correct. When you hire somebody's teenage kid, you almost invariably get the competence you pay for. By "somebody's teenage kid" I gather we're meant to assume this character is not qualified or certified; that's the very point of the article. I've certainly known of such people, and have even been that person. Indeed the first five years of my career were in helpdesk and network design roles, and I had no certifications. Sure, I know what you mean, that to be serious support professional for products from vendors like Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle, etc, you need certifications. But plenty of small-business networks are set up by young, inexperienced, uncertified people such as family members and friends, and if the business stays small it's often fine. But sure, among software developers, plenty of highly paid ones don't have qualifications/certifications, where it's not deemed necessary by employers/clients. And plenty do, where it is deemed necessary or legally required. I guess the real point is that people are paid more for their impact and the uniqueness of their abilities, not their certifications, and it's more common to be high-impact and unique as a developer than as a helpdesk tech.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  But a dev is often part of a pipeline that includes e.g. dedicated QAs. I'd also argue that common hardware is a lot less varied that common software architectures.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"This is a rant about a non-problem." Every time I buy a 'smart' version of a product, whether its a light or coffee machine, it becomes 10x less reliable. When your coffee machine is mining bitcoins because it's software is written in javascript and someone paid the author of left pad, that funny. When half the city comes to a hault becauae the same thing happened to traffic lights..
- tomhoward 5y ago
  For consumer products like coffee machines and light bulbs there are consumer protection laws, electronic device safety certifications, product review sites, brand reputation and word of mouth recommendations. It’s hard to imagine what kind of regulations would further improve things. (Consider also that many of these products are designed and produced in other countries, so we need to figure out how to force all those other countries to enforce the certifications that we demand). I’ve not heard of a traffic light failure due to the control system mining Bitcoin, and any software engineer who did that or allowed it to happen would find their career over pretty quickly.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    I am sorry but the arguments about brand betray terrible naivity, hundreds on innocent people have gone to jail because of software failure that was kept secret. https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses... "It’s hard to imagine what kind of regulations would further improve things" 1 simple law: for every product, place all firmware source-code in escrow, inspectable by police, MI6 and Courts in case of major hacks, breakdowns, and lawsuits.
    - tomhoward 5y ago
      > I am sorry but the arguments about brand betray terrible naivity You were complaining about coffee machines and lights. Not vast custom-built corporate/government IT platforms. Completely different products and a completely different discussion. And besides, the staff at Fujitsu working on such a system would likely be university qualified and certainly subject to liability insurance and contractual requirements specified by the client – which is exactly what the original article is calling for. > 1 simple law It's not simple at all, to completely rewrite every IP law and technology business convention in every country in the world :) And that's not what the article is calling for. It's just saying software developers should be qualified and insured.
Etheryte 5y ago
I think you might be missing the forest for the trees a bit. Many industries have a very wide range of certifications and there's no reason IT couldn't be the same. For example, think doctors: some are certified for surgery, some are certified to give physiotherapy, some are certified to refer you to other doctors etc. I don't think cost is a reasonable argument either — you wouldn't want a plumber with no knowledge of their profession just because they're cheaper. There's (usually) no life-threatening danger involved, but you can end up with very large expenses if something goes wrong.
- tomhoward 5y ago
  There’s more diversity in roles and risks in IT than there is in medicine. But even still there are still jobs related to health that don’t require qualifications and certification - e.g. massage and fitness training. Plumbing certainly involves physical safety and health; poor plumbing work can damage the building leading to collapse, or cause a fire/explosion, water contamination or electrical faults leading to injuries or fatalities.

austincheney 5y ago

> It’s absurd that the same standards of liability would apply to an aviation software job vs the part time IT guy While I agree, the reality is that the part time IT guy is generally far more certified than the high paid software developer, which I find far more absurd.

tomhoward 5y ago
> generally far more certified Hardly. Any software developer working on systems that risk people’s safety - eg avionics, automotive systems, medical devices, traffic control systems - would be required to have advanced university qualifications. Google at least used to require all its software engineers to have masters degrees. Do they still? People I’ve know to work in software dev jobs at Microsoft and even mid-level companies like TripAdvisor and SurveyMonkey have PhDs. Other tech companies like IBM and Accenture sure would require at least bachelor degrees. But sure, plenty of software developers have no formal qualifications or liability. And they’re not working on stuff that directly risks people’s physical safety.
- austincheney 5y ago
  That completely misses the point. Some developers have some certifications to cover employer liability. You cannot be a software developer for the US federal government without at least a Security+ certification, but this is rare among developers. In most of my giant corporate employers you didn’t need even a bachelors degree. Regardless of industry or employer you cannot get hired as a help desk IT guy without a laundry list of certifications. It is a night and day difference.
  - tomhoward 5y ago
    You said you agreed with my main point so I probably should have left it at that, but for the record: The OP says: Most organizations seem to hire their first part-time IT person before they reach 20 employees. When that first IT person is replaced, the new IT person bores everybody with complaints about how "totally incompetent" the first person must have been, and, usually, is correct. When you hire somebody's teenage kid, you almost invariably get the competence you pay for. By "somebody's teenage kid" I gather we're meant to assume this character is not qualified or certified; that's the very point of the article. I've certainly known of such people, and have even been that person. Indeed the first five years of my career were in helpdesk and network design roles, and I had no certifications. Sure, I know what you mean, that to be serious support professional for products from vendors like Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle, etc, you need certifications. But plenty of small-business networks are set up by young, inexperienced, uncertified people such as family members and friends, and if the business stays small it's often fine. But sure, among software developers, plenty of highly paid ones don't have qualifications/certifications, where it's not deemed necessary by employers/clients. And plenty do, where it is deemed necessary or legally required. I guess the real point is that people are paid more for their impact and the uniqueness of their abilities, not their certifications, and it's more common to be high-impact and unique as a developer than as a helpdesk tech.
Chris2048 5y ago
But a dev is often part of a pipeline that includes e.g. dedicated QAs. I'd also argue that common hardware is a lot less varied that common software architectures.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"This is a rant about a non-problem." Every time I buy a 'smart' version of a product, whether its a light or coffee machine, it becomes 10x less reliable. When your coffee machine is mining bitcoins because it's software is written in javascript and someone paid the author of left pad, that funny. When half the city comes to a hault becauae the same thing happened to traffic lights..

tomhoward 5y ago
For consumer products like coffee machines and light bulbs there are consumer protection laws, electronic device safety certifications, product review sites, brand reputation and word of mouth recommendations. It’s hard to imagine what kind of regulations would further improve things. (Consider also that many of these products are designed and produced in other countries, so we need to figure out how to force all those other countries to enforce the certifications that we demand). I’ve not heard of a traffic light failure due to the control system mining Bitcoin, and any software engineer who did that or allowed it to happen would find their career over pretty quickly.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  I am sorry but the arguments about brand betray terrible naivity, hundreds on innocent people have gone to jail because of software failure that was kept secret. https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses... "It’s hard to imagine what kind of regulations would further improve things" 1 simple law: for every product, place all firmware source-code in escrow, inspectable by police, MI6 and Courts in case of major hacks, breakdowns, and lawsuits.
  - tomhoward 5y ago
    > I am sorry but the arguments about brand betray terrible naivity You were complaining about coffee machines and lights. Not vast custom-built corporate/government IT platforms. Completely different products and a completely different discussion. And besides, the staff at Fujitsu working on such a system would likely be university qualified and certainly subject to liability insurance and contractual requirements specified by the client – which is exactly what the original article is calling for. > 1 simple law It's not simple at all, to completely rewrite every IP law and technology business convention in every country in the world :) And that's not what the article is calling for. It's just saying software developers should be qualified and insured.

Etheryte 5y ago

I think you might be missing the forest for the trees a bit. Many industries have a very wide range of certifications and there's no reason IT couldn't be the same. For example, think doctors: some are certified for surgery, some are certified to give physiotherapy, some are certified to refer you to other doctors etc. I don't think cost is a reasonable argument either — you wouldn't want a plumber with no knowledge of their profession just because they're cheaper. There's (usually) no life-threatening danger involved, but you can end up with very large expenses if something goes wrong.

tomhoward 5y ago
There’s more diversity in roles and risks in IT than there is in medicine. But even still there are still jobs related to health that don’t require qualifications and certification - e.g. massage and fitness training. Plumbing certainly involves physical safety and health; poor plumbing work can damage the building leading to collapse, or cause a fire/explosion, water contamination or electrical faults leading to injuries or fatalities.