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Honestly Catholicism doesn't have a stellar history with smart people in general. Or kids, for that matter. When I mention anti-intellectualism in Catholic doc

Honestly Catholicism doesn't have a stellar history with smart people in general. Or kids, for that matter. When I mention anti-intellectualism in Catholic doctrine, people often retort "Well, St. Augustine...". Guys, if you need to go back 1,700 years for a counter-example your argument might not be on the firmest ground. Yes, there are many smart Catholics. I'm not saying Catholics are lesser people. This isn't bait, or flaming Catholics. I'm adding to the guy above's pet theory, which at first glance looks pretty compelling, when you add up the effect of those very real and well documented trends over generations.

flohofwoe 5y ago
A more recent (fairly famous) example, the Big Bang theory was formulated by a Catholic priest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
- mandmandam 5y ago
  That's actually a good illustration of my point - he believed science and religion shouldn't mix. Contrast with Judaism, or Buddhism, where integration of the spiritual and scientific is often encouraged.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Jesuits definitely look at science as a way of discovering the beauty of the world created by God.
    - mandmandam 5y ago
      Have you heard the phrase, "the exception that proves the rule" before?
      - kaba0 5y ago
        Then the litany of Christian scientists will disprove you.
        mandmandam 5y ago
        Scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power - https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/ https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/ Compound that effect over generations.
marginalia_nu 5y ago
It might just be shifting degrees of intellectual challenge. St Augustine came to shine as part as a response to the threat of competing movements such as pelagianism and arianism. (As a side-note, reading the Confessions I came off thinking St Augustine felt really anti-intellectual; especially in contrast to someone like Boethius) Then the church went largely intellectually unchallenged for a thousand years, and that's never great for bringing out the best and the brightest. A lot of what made for example the philosophers of antiquity so sharp was the fierce competition between rival schools. Later when the church came under real pressure from the reformation, you had counter-reformation groups like the Jesuits form as a response which was a huge step up intellectually. I also think we sort of tend to unfairly view the church through the writings of its critics; both reformists and later the enlightenment had a lot to say that we just seem to take as true without consideration of the source. A lot of stuff, even bad stuff like the inquisition, wasn't as bad as we tend to think. Against the background of what legal systems in general looked in the period, the inquisition was almost gentle.
- danielvf 5y ago
  > A lot of stuff, even bad stuff like the inquisition, wasn't as bad as we tend to think. Against the background of what legal systems in general looked in the period, the inquisition was almost gentle. The Inquisition, in places, was every bit as bad as it was rumored. You are correct that the inquisition was supposed to be "gentle" up until it pleased the Holy Spirit to have the heretic burned who did not change their beliefs. ---- And in some places, the program went more according to plan: Inquisitor: Yo dude, do you believe the $CATHLOC_TRUTH If dude say yes, dude goes free, otherwise continue. Inquisitor: Yo, here's fifty reasons that $CATHLOC_TRUTH is true. Do you believe now? If dude say yes, dude goes free, otherwise continue. Inquisitor: Yo, I'm locking you up for six months to think about it. Inquisitor: Yo dude, do you believe the $CATHLOC_TRUTH, if not you are going to burn. If dude say yes, dude goes free, otherwise dude gets burnt. ---- So at each step of the process there is an "escape hatch" if someone is willing to renounce what they believed and submit. --- But in Spain, it was different. The Spanish style went with the theory that the worst heretics would try to hide their heresy, and therefor agreeing with the $CATHLOC_TRUTH was actually a sign of hidden evil. So in Spain: Inquisitor: Yo dude, you are a HERITIC! Dude: I believe the $CATHLOC_TRUTH. Inquisitor: That's just what a hectic would say! We are going to torture you until you say you don't really believe the $CATHLOC_TRUTH and you tell us the names of at least six of your friends and relative who are also secret heritcs. Then we will burn you. Lastly, once you are dead I'll keep all your money and lands, and then go arrest your friends/family and repeat. ---- Again, in theory, the inquisition was supposed to use only very gentle forms of torture, like waterboarding, but the actual practice in southern Spain was even worse.

flohofwoe 5y ago

A more recent (fairly famous) example, the Big Bang theory was formulated by a Catholic priest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

mandmandam 5y ago
That's actually a good illustration of my point - he believed science and religion shouldn't mix. Contrast with Judaism, or Buddhism, where integration of the spiritual and scientific is often encouraged.
- kaba0 5y ago
  Jesuits definitely look at science as a way of discovering the beauty of the world created by God.
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    Have you heard the phrase, "the exception that proves the rule" before?
    - kaba0 5y ago
      Then the litany of Christian scientists will disprove you.
      - mandmandam 5y ago
        Scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power - https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/ https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/ Compound that effect over generations.

marginalia_nu 5y ago

It might just be shifting degrees of intellectual challenge. St Augustine came to shine as part as a response to the threat of competing movements such as pelagianism and arianism. (As a side-note, reading the Confessions I came off thinking St Augustine felt really anti-intellectual; especially in contrast to someone like Boethius) Then the church went largely intellectually unchallenged for a thousand years, and that's never great for bringing out the best and the brightest. A lot of what made for example the philosophers of antiquity so sharp was the fierce competition between rival schools. Later when the church came under real pressure from the reformation, you had counter-reformation groups like the Jesuits form as a response which was a huge step up intellectually. I also think we sort of tend to unfairly view the church through the writings of its critics; both reformists and later the enlightenment had a lot to say that we just seem to take as true without consideration of the source. A lot of stuff, even bad stuff like the inquisition, wasn't as bad as we tend to think. Against the background of what legal systems in general looked in the period, the inquisition was almost gentle.

danielvf 5y ago
> A lot of stuff, even bad stuff like the inquisition, wasn't as bad as we tend to think. Against the background of what legal systems in general looked in the period, the inquisition was almost gentle. The Inquisition, in places, was every bit as bad as it was rumored. You are correct that the inquisition was supposed to be "gentle" up until it pleased the Holy Spirit to have the heretic burned who did not change their beliefs. ---- And in some places, the program went more according to plan: Inquisitor: Yo dude, do you believe the $CATHLOC_TRUTH If dude say yes, dude goes free, otherwise continue. Inquisitor: Yo, here's fifty reasons that $CATHLOC_TRUTH is true. Do you believe now? If dude say yes, dude goes free, otherwise continue. Inquisitor: Yo, I'm locking you up for six months to think about it. Inquisitor: Yo dude, do you believe the $CATHLOC_TRUTH, if not you are going to burn. If dude say yes, dude goes free, otherwise dude gets burnt. ---- So at each step of the process there is an "escape hatch" if someone is willing to renounce what they believed and submit. --- But in Spain, it was different. The Spanish style went with the theory that the worst heretics would try to hide their heresy, and therefor agreeing with the $CATHLOC_TRUTH was actually a sign of hidden evil. So in Spain: Inquisitor: Yo dude, you are a HERITIC! Dude: I believe the $CATHLOC_TRUTH. Inquisitor: That's just what a hectic would say! We are going to torture you until you say you don't really believe the $CATHLOC_TRUTH and you tell us the names of at least six of your friends and relative who are also secret heritcs. Then we will burn you. Lastly, once you are dead I'll keep all your money and lands, and then go arrest your friends/family and repeat. ---- Again, in theory, the inquisition was supposed to use only very gentle forms of torture, like waterboarding, but the actual practice in southern Spain was even worse.