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My pet theory is that Jewish culture didn't suffer from the generational drain of monastic orders. In Medieval times, a smart Jewish kid – especially future Rab
by Red_Tarsius 5y ago
My pet theory is that Jewish culture didn't suffer from the generational drain of monastic orders. In Medieval times, a smart Jewish kid – especially future Rabbis – would be expected to "be fruitful and multiply". A smart Catholic kid would more often become a celibate cog of the Church, thus ending their line.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y agoThis is interesting but wouldn't explain the lack of such achievements in non-European cultures.
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- goblinden 5y agoMathematics in medieval Islam were lit during the 8th-12th centuries! Would these guys have had such an impact without Algebra?
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y agoI'm a great fan of mathematical achievements in medieval Middle East, India and China. However, it does not explain why the Martians of Budapest were Jews, not Persian or Chinese, in the context we are discussing in this thread, that is "the end of smart-male line by means of celibacy."
- beebeepka 5y agoCulture. It can't be just genetcs Edit: whoever downvoted me is a racist! Hohoho
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y agoDon't worry about downvotes, they're just a "I don't agree with you/don't like what you say but I don't bother to explain why"-type message. Back to the topic: maybe it could be a combination of the two. Still, it would be interesting to know what exactly - in both genetics and culture - made the Budapest Martians so successful.
- mandmandam 5y agoIgnoring your questionable use of the word achievement, Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond explains the massive bulk of this. It might not be written for academics, and may jump to a conclusion or two, but it's pretty damn convincing all the same. In any case, discounting the geographic luck that Europe has benefited from is unwise. And a lil bit racist.
- DalasNoin 5y agoI think Jared Diamond told a number of convincing stories in this book to convince people of geographical determinism. However, I don't think that any of it amounts to a real proof. Essentially, he picks out more or less "successful" societies and then correlates it to the features of the environments they existed in. Almost certainly overfitting since there is no real test set. His theory also does not account for the topic of this link: extreme success of a minority group.
- goblinden 5y agoIt is an interesting theory. Makes even more sense when you consider that Islamic law of inheritance served as an impetus behind the development of algebra!
- Telemakhos 5y agoWow, someone should explain the history of algebra to Diophantus of Alexandria.
- goblinden 5y agoDiophhntus certainly is the father of Algebra, but he only laid a concrete foundation that al-Khwarizmi solidified into a distinct field and built into the castle its become today. A lot more than that simple foundation, but you're point is taken.
- mandmandam 5y agoHonestly Catholicism doesn't have a stellar history with smart people in general. Or kids, for that matter. When I mention anti-intellectualism in Catholic doctrine, people often retort "Well, St. Augustine...". Guys, if you need to go back 1,700 years for a counter-example your argument might not be on the firmest ground. Yes, there are many smart Catholics. I'm not saying Catholics are lesser people. This isn't bait, or flaming Catholics. I'm adding to the guy above's pet theory, which at first glance looks pretty compelling, when you add up the effect of those very real and well documented trends over generations.
- flohofwoe 5y agoA more recent (fairly famous) example, the Big Bang theory was formulated by a Catholic priest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
- mandmandam 5y agoThat's actually a good illustration of my point - he believed science and religion shouldn't mix. Contrast with Judaism, or Buddhism, where integration of the spiritual and scientific is often encouraged.
- kaba0 5y agoJesuits definitely look at science as a way of discovering the beauty of the world created by God.
- mandmandam 5y agoHave you heard the phrase, "the exception that proves the rule" before?
- kaba0 5y agoThen the litany of Christian scientists will disprove you.
- onetimemanytime 5y agoIn practice I'd say that a lot of priests did father children. Made of flesh and blood...
- mandmandam 5y agoAnd those 'bastards' were often treated horrifically for the mother's crimes. This lasted well up into the last century. Even today children of single mothers are at a large disadvantage, but at least it's not quite as institutional and savage.
- lelanthran 5y ago> Even today children of single mothers are at a large disadvantage, Except that today, with few exceptions, the decision to have that child rests entirely with the mother. With respect to family matters, females, especially in modern societies, have many more options than any other demographic of that society, or indeed, in all of history. It's not quite comparable to how bastard children and their mothers were treated in the past.
- redtexture 5y agoExcept except coerced sex.
- onetimemanytime 5y agoMost likely their mom's husband was "daddy" and they were raised like their half-siblings, as peasants.
- flexie 5y agoProtestant priests have married since the reformation (Luther married). So in the mostly protestant Northern and Western Europe, and in the mostly protestant US, there was no celibacy requirements for 4-500 centuries.
- redtexture 5y ago> 4-500 centuries. that would be 500 years
- flexie 5y agoAlmost, yes. It happened gradually over decades, and I would assume that all unmarried priests weren't replaced right away.
- cat199 5y ago> Protestant this article is about hapsburg empire - direct line to the holy roman empire & 100% catholic officially
- flexie 5y agoBut the comment I replied to was not.
- DalasNoin 5y agoIs there evidence that monastic orders selected kids for intelligence? This effect should have then stopped with the protestant reformation in parts of europe. Maybe it is part of the reason why protestant heritage countries are more successful than catholic ones.
- JasonFruit 5y agoIt's more likely to have selected younger sons, who did not inherit, and were more likely to seek a monastic or otherwise religious life.
- marton78 5y agoAren't younger sons less risk averse and thus more likely to bring forth societal change?
- kaba0 5y agoI think Jewish culture has a tendency of making the cleverest man marry the richest woman — and overall pay close attention to discovering talent within their communities.
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