6 ms·

> Ashkenazi Jews, who are genetically more likely to have high IQ As an Ashkenazi Jew I think this theory is likely nonsense, but dangerous nonsense which can

by rat87 5y ago

> Ashkenazi Jews, who are genetically more likely to have high IQ As an Ashkenazi Jew I think this theory is likely nonsense, but dangerous nonsense which can drive racism.

rbanffy 5y ago
Racism is always a stick. The same reasoning that would say Ashkenazis are smarter than the general population can be used to say the general population is less intelligent, or valuable. Humanity is immensely diverse and our tools to measure value are extremely flawed and unreliable. Let’s not forget there are probably many Tellers and Von Neumanns that never got to university because they couldn’t afford it and are now tending tables to pay for rent. It doesn’t make them any less valuable or talented. It just makes them less successful and visible.
kaba0 5y ago
Well, I did found a few studies on the topic, but would not call it having overwhelming evidence so you may be right. I couldn’t make as good a job as the linked article, but what other explanation could you give on the very real difference between the racial composition of scientific geniuses vs the “average” people (define the former as you prefer)? Because one definition (number of Nobel prize winners) will definitely wake racist explanations. The article very clearly goes into several possible explanations, rejecting most of them. It was not the particular school, nor the city, Jewish cultural heritage could have an effect but afaik not every Jewish Nobel prize winner held strictly onto religious traditions (though still, it is a standing possible explanation, especially with a strong view on the importance of education as culture doesn’t stop at religion). Being of higher class families definitely correlates with every sorts of success, but it is not specific to Jewish people. So I’m still not bought on the environment-only explanation. Of course it is never only nature or nurture for complex situations, but a more “fertile ground” for studying will amplify other nurture effects as well. I’m writing all these as a non-Jewish Hungarian though, so my thoughts are definitely not from nationalism or racism, but more from a form of awe (though I agree that positive discrimination/bias may also be problematic)
xyzelement 5y ago
Just curious, why? Are you looking at the theory, saying "I don't like what it implies therefore I wish it were false" or is there more to it? I don't know what the answer is but I do feel that Jews culturally value intelligence/education and I can see how that leads to it being sought and passed on in marriage and children.
- pvg 5y ago
  Because it's fairly plain genetic determinism, the same kind of theory that postulated the superiority of, say, 'Aryans'.
  - xyzelement 5y ago
    Hang on. You are mixing "what's true" and "how I feel about what it implies." That sounds highly unscientific to me. "Ashkenazi Jews selectively breed for intelligence and therefore have higher inate IQ" is either true or false. That's the first question to answer and it seems logical to me that this is at least possible/likely. Once we establish that it's true, we can confront the implications with intellectual integrity.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      We're now recapitulating essentially every thread about scientific racism that has ever occurred on any message board. I would like to gently suggest we not do this. There are values HN holds dearer than "intellectual integrity", whatever that may mean to whoever writes it, and the most important of them is creating a space for curious conversation. As moderatin' Dan has said over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and knitting, and knitting, and knitting, and knitting, ah-hah-hahhnd knitting, ah-hah-hahhnd knitting, ah-hah-hahhnd knitting, and knitting again: appeals to these kinds of polarizing arguments do nothing but threaten to burn down that space.
      - IlliOnato 5y ago
        Steven Pinker suggested that scientists should voluntarily avoid research and discussion of such topics, not because it's not worthwhile, but because (given human history and social organization, and the fact that "race" can be used as a highly visible marker) it can provoke the worst in people, or be used by bad ones to justify their nasty attitude and behaviour. I could subscribe to a version of this dictum, but it should apply to all participants and views, not just a particular theory someone prefers. If there are rules (better spelled out) like "any discussion of a connection or lack thereof between genes, race, and cognitive abilities is not allowed on this site", fine with me. I can see the reason, and anyway it's fair. Allowing some people to say that there is no connection, while suppressing ones of a different opinion (in a scientific context, mind you) is entirely different.

by rat87 5y ago

> Ashkenazi Jews, who are genetically more likely to have high IQ As an Ashkenazi Jew I think this theory is likely nonsense, but dangerous nonsense which can drive racism.

rbanffy 5y ago

Racism is always a stick. The same reasoning that would say Ashkenazis are smarter than the general population can be used to say the general population is less intelligent, or valuable. Humanity is immensely diverse and our tools to measure value are extremely flawed and unreliable. Let’s not forget there are probably many Tellers and Von Neumanns that never got to university because they couldn’t afford it and are now tending tables to pay for rent. It doesn’t make them any less valuable or talented. It just makes them less successful and visible.

kaba0 5y ago

Well, I did found a few studies on the topic, but would not call it having overwhelming evidence so you may be right. I couldn’t make as good a job as the linked article, but what other explanation could you give on the very real difference between the racial composition of scientific geniuses vs the “average” people (define the former as you prefer)? Because one definition (number of Nobel prize winners) will definitely wake racist explanations. The article very clearly goes into several possible explanations, rejecting most of them. It was not the particular school, nor the city, Jewish cultural heritage could have an effect but afaik not every Jewish Nobel prize winner held strictly onto religious traditions (though still, it is a standing possible explanation, especially with a strong view on the importance of education as culture doesn’t stop at religion). Being of higher class families definitely correlates with every sorts of success, but it is not specific to Jewish people. So I’m still not bought on the environment-only explanation. Of course it is never only nature or nurture for complex situations, but a more “fertile ground” for studying will amplify other nurture effects as well. I’m writing all these as a non-Jewish Hungarian though, so my thoughts are definitely not from nationalism or racism, but more from a form of awe (though I agree that positive discrimination/bias may also be problematic)

xyzelement 5y ago

Just curious, why? Are you looking at the theory, saying "I don't like what it implies therefore I wish it were false" or is there more to it? I don't know what the answer is but I do feel that Jews culturally value intelligence/education and I can see how that leads to it being sought and passed on in marriage and children.

pvg 5y ago
Because it's fairly plain genetic determinism, the same kind of theory that postulated the superiority of, say, 'Aryans'.
- xyzelement 5y ago
  Hang on. You are mixing "what's true" and "how I feel about what it implies." That sounds highly unscientific to me. "Ashkenazi Jews selectively breed for intelligence and therefore have higher inate IQ" is either true or false. That's the first question to answer and it seems logical to me that this is at least possible/likely. Once we establish that it's true, we can confront the implications with intellectual integrity.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    We're now recapitulating essentially every thread about scientific racism that has ever occurred on any message board. I would like to gently suggest we not do this. There are values HN holds dearer than "intellectual integrity", whatever that may mean to whoever writes it, and the most important of them is creating a space for curious conversation. As moderatin' Dan has said over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and knitting, and knitting, and knitting, and knitting, ah-hah-hahhnd knitting, ah-hah-hahhnd knitting, ah-hah-hahhnd knitting, and knitting again: appeals to these kinds of polarizing arguments do nothing but threaten to burn down that space.
    - IlliOnato 5y ago
      Steven Pinker suggested that scientists should voluntarily avoid research and discussion of such topics, not because it's not worthwhile, but because (given human history and social organization, and the fact that "race" can be used as a highly visible marker) it can provoke the worst in people, or be used by bad ones to justify their nasty attitude and behaviour. I could subscribe to a version of this dictum, but it should apply to all participants and views, not just a particular theory someone prefers. If there are rules (better spelled out) like "any discussion of a connection or lack thereof between genes, race, and cognitive abilities is not allowed on this site", fine with me. I can see the reason, and anyway it's fair. Allowing some people to say that there is no connection, while suppressing ones of a different opinion (in a scientific context, mind you) is entirely different.