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It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering". I s

It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering". I say this as someone who programs, teaches programming/computer science, and has worked professionally as a software development engineer - the comment isn't made to denigrate anyone, but because software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have. Also - I'm curious about how effective it is to tell the engineers to do the right thing (even at the expense of personal gain). It seems like the people most responsible for making decisions that build harmful products aren't the ones who are actually tasked with building the harmful products. Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situations from happening?

jareklupinski 5y ago
one thing that I found works: religion. ask the engineer about to enter the arena what they would like to do with the money they hope to achieve, their end-goals, etc. then follow-up with whether they would feel morally/spiritually at peace with their choices and methods after the fact (do your ends justify your means?) in my experience, the people with the IQ to earn a yacht responsibly end up settling for a speedboat anyway.
pjmlp 5y ago
It certainly does, just not in US. https://www.ordemengenheiros.pt/pt/a-ordem/colegios-e-especialidades/informatica/ https://www.ordemengenheiros.pt/pt/a-ordem/colegios-e-especi... No Portuguese university is allowed to call their computing degrees engineering without their approval, and in certain kinds of state related projects, the one putting their signature into the legal contracts has to have the professional title acknowledged. Germany and Switzerland have a similar process for those carrying engineering on their title. Either that or you have done it via a trade school, and people on the job have to have a kind of teaching certification for the school to approve the company as teaching place.
- hahajk 5y ago
  Even in the US computer engineering degrees require licensing and are different than “software engineering”, which is actually a specialty within computer science.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Except everyone calls themselves "engineer" after a 6 weeks bootcamp, is is rediculous.
    - fallingknife 5y ago
      I went to bootcamp and outperform people with master's degrees that don't even understand why a hashmap is amortized O(1) every day. You got ripped off paying for school so take your degree and shove it.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        State pays for our degrees, and ensures that are actually market worthy. Also not everyone and their dog gets in unless they prove their skills. Most private university are seen as scams. You should start by shooting down all the university scams in US to start with.
    - hahajk 5y ago
      Yes, I thought your comment was about university regulations. Does Portugal make it illegal to list “software engineer” on your business card? (or does Portugal have a software engineering licensing system?)
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Yes to both questions. If you happen to be someone like our former prime minister, or being lucky that no one bothers to sue because of how long everything takes. However, depending on the company, it might be a matter to lose the job. Where it definitely matters is signing legal binding contracts.
ddevault 5y ago
I agree that 99% of software developers are not engineers, not because software engineering isn't engineering, but because they are not doing software engineering. You can, and should, apply the principles of engineering to your development process, but hardly anyone does. Generous planning and foresight, objective measures of performance, an intimate understanding of the system you're deploying, etc. A software developer glues together 400 node modules they don't understand and ships to Other People's Computers, then hands them their debit card when the load goes up. A software engineer knows that every line of code is accounted for, because they've actually done the accounting, and knew the scale requirements in advance (with error bars) and provisioned the infrastructure accordingly - with a budget.
- btgeekboy 5y ago
  Engineering isn’t about building the perfect widget. (Otherwise, the Juicero would have done better.) It’s about building things that meet requirements, given a set of inputs. A credit card is certainly one of those inputs, and perfectly precise scaling may not be one of those requirements.
  - ddevault 5y ago
    You don't need perfect, but some actual planning and application of the scientific method is called for.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have Yeah and I hope it stays that way. Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. > Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situations from happening? It's not about training or indoctrination. It's about legal responsibility and liability. Make professional programmers directly responsible for the code they get paid to write. If society finds they're causing harm, it will hold them accountable for it. We must increase the risk associated with building unethical technology. Programmers need to think twice before they build the next surveillance capitalism nightmare.
- wyre 5y ago
  > If society finds they're causing harm, it will hold them accountable for it. Our society does a really bad job at holding people accountable for the harm they do. What makes you think it would be any different for software?
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    It seems to work with doctors.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  > Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. i don't think so because as you said: > It's about legal responsibility and liability. Make professional programmers directly responsible for the code they get paid to write. we urgently need liability for for-profit software in order to stop softwares race to the bottom.
  - heurisko 5y ago
    My company has liability insurance. I'm indirectly liable, in that I can lose my job, however. If I were a contractor, I would also buy liability insurance.
cinntaile 5y ago
In Europe protected software engineering titles definitely exist as a sibling comment already pointed out. This only means you can't call yourself that, it doesn't mean you can't do that kind of work. From that perspective it might differ from civil engineering, but the distinction is likely not clear cut there either. Maybe only the guy signing off on the bridge's technical capabilities has to have the degree while the rest of the group that does the work doesn't need the degree.

jareklupinski 5y ago

one thing that I found works: religion. ask the engineer about to enter the arena what they would like to do with the money they hope to achieve, their end-goals, etc. then follow-up with whether they would feel morally/spiritually at peace with their choices and methods after the fact (do your ends justify your means?) in my experience, the people with the IQ to earn a yacht responsibly end up settling for a speedboat anyway.

pjmlp 5y ago

It certainly does, just not in US. https://www.ordemengenheiros.pt/pt/a-ordem/colegios-e-especialidades/informatica/ https://www.ordemengenheiros.pt/pt/a-ordem/colegios-e-especi... No Portuguese university is allowed to call their computing degrees engineering without their approval, and in certain kinds of state related projects, the one putting their signature into the legal contracts has to have the professional title acknowledged. Germany and Switzerland have a similar process for those carrying engineering on their title. Either that or you have done it via a trade school, and people on the job have to have a kind of teaching certification for the school to approve the company as teaching place.

hahajk 5y ago
Even in the US computer engineering degrees require licensing and are different than “software engineering”, which is actually a specialty within computer science.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Except everyone calls themselves "engineer" after a 6 weeks bootcamp, is is rediculous.
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    I went to bootcamp and outperform people with master's degrees that don't even understand why a hashmap is amortized O(1) every day. You got ripped off paying for school so take your degree and shove it.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      State pays for our degrees, and ensures that are actually market worthy. Also not everyone and their dog gets in unless they prove their skills. Most private university are seen as scams. You should start by shooting down all the university scams in US to start with.
  - hahajk 5y ago
    Yes, I thought your comment was about university regulations. Does Portugal make it illegal to list “software engineer” on your business card? (or does Portugal have a software engineering licensing system?)
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Yes to both questions. If you happen to be someone like our former prime minister, or being lucky that no one bothers to sue because of how long everything takes. However, depending on the company, it might be a matter to lose the job. Where it definitely matters is signing legal binding contracts.

ddevault 5y ago

I agree that 99% of software developers are not engineers, not because software engineering isn't engineering, but because they are not doing software engineering. You can, and should, apply the principles of engineering to your development process, but hardly anyone does. Generous planning and foresight, objective measures of performance, an intimate understanding of the system you're deploying, etc. A software developer glues together 400 node modules they don't understand and ships to Other People's Computers, then hands them their debit card when the load goes up. A software engineer knows that every line of code is accounted for, because they've actually done the accounting, and knew the scale requirements in advance (with error bars) and provisioned the infrastructure accordingly - with a budget.

btgeekboy 5y ago
Engineering isn’t about building the perfect widget. (Otherwise, the Juicero would have done better.) It’s about building things that meet requirements, given a set of inputs. A credit card is certainly one of those inputs, and perfectly precise scaling may not be one of those requirements.
- ddevault 5y ago
  You don't need perfect, but some actual planning and application of the scientific method is called for.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

> software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have Yeah and I hope it stays that way. Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. > Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situations from happening? It's not about training or indoctrination. It's about legal responsibility and liability. Make professional programmers directly responsible for the code they get paid to write. If society finds they're causing harm, it will hold them accountable for it. We must increase the risk associated with building unethical technology. Programmers need to think twice before they build the next surveillance capitalism nightmare.

wyre 5y ago
> If society finds they're causing harm, it will hold them accountable for it. Our society does a really bad job at holding people accountable for the harm they do. What makes you think it would be any different for software?
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  It seems to work with doctors.
hansel_der 5y ago
> Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. i don't think so because as you said: > It's about legal responsibility and liability. Make professional programmers directly responsible for the code they get paid to write. we urgently need liability for for-profit software in order to stop softwares race to the bottom.
- heurisko 5y ago
  My company has liability insurance. I'm indirectly liable, in that I can lose my job, however. If I were a contractor, I would also buy liability insurance.

cinntaile 5y ago

In Europe protected software engineering titles definitely exist as a sibling comment already pointed out. This only means you can't call yourself that, it doesn't mean you can't do that kind of work. From that perspective it might differ from civil engineering, but the distinction is likely not clear cut there either. Maybe only the guy signing off on the bridge's technical capabilities has to have the degree while the rest of the group that does the work doesn't need the degree.